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Post by onotoman on May 3, 2011 6:16:11 GMT -5
Hi Guys,
Probably a simple question but does anyone know what (currently available) oil I should use in a Protector Safety Lamp.
It's an original Type 1 Lamp that I've restored and I'll just be using if for interest and decoration rather than actually testing for gas etc.
Many thanks
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Post by Sam from Kent on May 3, 2011 6:50:38 GMT -5
Copy of article on www.healeyhero.co.uk/rescue/glossary/Lamps/Fuel.htm Some Tips From Brain Robinson ** DO NOT USE PETROL Paraffin can be used BUT only in imitation or ornamental lamps that are designed for it, they normally have no gauzes and it should say on the bottom of these lamps that they are only to be run on paraffin. Paraffin is obviously more available, but gives a less luminous flame, and can be smoky (unless you use Esso Blue, remember the old TV ad?). On a full vessel, a lamp should last around 10 hours on a medium flame, or maybe 20 hours on a low flame. For a Protector lamp Colzaline is the official stuff, more timely they use a solvent based stuff, called Sovent 40. I will try to get more details to you later, but you should be able to order through your local oil central heating supplier, you should get a gallon (lasts long, long time) for about £25. A gallon in small lighter fuel tins = £150 or more. Lighter fuel is very similar to lamp spirit, that's why countless miners used to fill their cigarette lighters in the lamproom!!! (It must have cost the colliery a fortune). Southern Refining were the manufacturers of the Solvent 20 modern equivalent, at the time they were supplying small mines in Wales. I was kind of an unofficial dealer for them about 5 years ago, but not many folk want lamp oil now. Colzaline is a slightly heavier oil than the solvent, and as such could be a little more difficult to light with re-lighter. On a gallon tin, the label is; SAFSOL 2 (contains heptane) UN 1206 EC 205 - 563 - 8 There is always the chance they may have closed down but if not Protectors phone & fax numbers are 0161 789 3013 fax, 787 8257, ask for David Mather, I was kind of an unofficial dealer for them about 5 years ago, but not many folk want lamps nowor the contents of any pages referenced by an external link. |
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Post by John on May 3, 2011 7:16:52 GMT -5
The closest I've found to "coalzaline" is marketed by Colemans for camping lamps, the pump up pressurized type. It smell's pretty close to the true lamp fluid too. I'll get the product number when I go up to my workshop soon.
No never ever use petrol, unless your house is exceptionally well insured!!
The problem with these lamps is you have to light them assembled, which means the fuel has to be volatile, kerosene is useless.
If you live close to one of the still working pits, I'd approach management and see if they will sell you some lamp oil.
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Post by onotoman on May 3, 2011 7:29:58 GMT -5
Many thanks guys, if looks like Coleman Fuel is the stuff to use then.
Best wishes
Dave
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Post by John on May 3, 2011 7:44:08 GMT -5
Many thanks guys, if looks like Coleman Fuel is the stuff to use then. Best wishes Dave No problems Dave, I'll be going up to my workshop pretty soon, so will get the full product name and if there's a number on the can, I'll get that too and post it here. |
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Post by onotoman on May 3, 2011 9:24:56 GMT -5
Great, many thanks again John.
Also - it looks like the flat wick in the lamp is past it's best, would you know if there is a supplier for these? I e-mailed the Protector company but haven't had a reply as yet.
I think I can get the actual wick out of the brass wick housing/Adjuster so even if I can locate a match for the fabric part of the wick itself, this should get it going.
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Post by John on May 3, 2011 10:48:44 GMT -5
Great, many thanks again John. Also - it looks like the flat wick in the lamp is past it's best, would you know if there is a supplier for these? I e-mailed the Protector company but haven't had a reply as yet. I think I can get the actual wick out of the brass wick housing/Adjuster so even if I can locate a match for the fabric part of the wick itself, this should get it going. OK its marketed by Coleman and called Coleman Camp Fuel. There is no product number on the can I have. This is what the fuel is "White gas, exemplified by Coleman Camp Fuel, is a common naphtha fuel used in many lanterns and torches." So is almost the same type of fuel we used in Flame Safety Lamps. |
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Post by John on May 3, 2011 10:58:55 GMT -5
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inbye
Shotfirer.
Posts: 114
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Post by inbye on May 3, 2011 13:38:07 GMT -5
Hi Guys, Probably a simple question but does anyone know what (currently available) oil I should use in a Protector Safety Lamp. It's an original Type 1 Lamp that I've restored and I'll just be using if for interest and decoration rather than actually testing for gas etc. Many thanks Hiya, I'm not into Protector lamps too much, but I think the type 1 is a flat wick type oil burner. If thats the case, don't use colzaline or any spirit based fuel, it's too volatile. I'm thinking your lamp is the type without sponges in the font, where you can light the wick & then assemble the lamp, yes? If so use clean paraffin as suggested above. Even better (if a bit more expensive) is the lamp oil sold specifically for domestic oil lamps, it gives off less odour. Using Colza or other spirits might start off OK, but as the lamp heats up it'll become more & more volatile/unpredictable. If you do, don't leave it unattended. In the late 1970's I worked at Flockton plant hire & did a few weeks on nights, coal stacking at Wooley colliery. Being into miners lamps I asked the night lampman for some Colzaline, he gave me a quart lemonade bottle full....still got half of it somewhere. |
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Post by John on May 3, 2011 13:57:58 GMT -5
The Protector is a round wick lamp with sponges in the base, works of Colzaline or naphtha type oil. Came in two major styles, workmans none relightable, that had a steel bonnet and was lit in the lamproom with an electric lighting device.
The other style is the officials lamp, Garforth type, stainless steel bonnet, relighting device. Came in either magnetic lock or lead seal locking style. Those are the ones we surface electricians serviced, at Angus Place.
The earlier style officials lamps, in the 1960's, had shut off rings to direct the air into the lamp, these were a tad unsafe where there was gas around, as there could be a chance of the lamp flaring and igniting the gas.
These were changed out for the safer GR6 version, where a rubber sampling bulb was used to take gas samples and inject them into the lamp away from possible gas layering.
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Post by John on May 3, 2011 14:02:18 GMT -5
I still have a box of the asbestos washers for these lamps somewhere.  The lamps had two washers, one over the glass between it and the gauze flanges, and one under the glass between it and the base. The bottom one was a fibre type washer and the top one was white asbestos. The asbestos was replaced by the same type as the bottom washer. |
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inbye
Shotfirer.
Posts: 114
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Post by inbye on May 3, 2011 14:39:33 GMT -5
As I said, almost certain the type 1 is a flat wick, oil burner. I don't seem able to post images any longer, otherwise I could post pics of the Protector MC 40-flat wick, almost sure an oil burner. Also the Protector CT33A, a high candle power flat wick lamp from the 1930's, definately an oil burner. On the other hand the scarce Protector type 58 was a Colza spirit lamp, lit from it's own integral nickle alkaline cell.
No doubt the OP will say what type of wick is in his lamp.
Just read the OP's third post where he says "it looks like the flat wick in the lamp is past it's best"
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Post by John on May 3, 2011 15:19:32 GMT -5
Sorry about that, missed the flat wick bit, having worked around oil lamps and only having seen the round wick types, missed the flat wicks. Not sure, Dave will correct me if I'm wrong, as he's with Protector Lamps, but I don't think flat wicks have been used for years, so the lamp in question is probably pretty old. My two were purchased when I lived in Australia from the rep who serviced the pit I worked at. Could have saved myself a couple of hundred bucks if I'd waited, as I was doing surface duties on Nights for a while, then swing shift. I could have scrapped out a couple of lamps.  If we had to replace any parts, the law required us to dispose of the faulty parts ASAP so that they couldn't be used again.. A whole lamp would have to have been left with the engineer, but parts no. Slipped up big time there.  |
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Post by John on May 3, 2011 15:26:35 GMT -5
Great, many thanks again John. Also - it looks like the flat wick in the lamp is past it's best, would you know if there is a supplier for these? I e-mailed the Protector company but haven't had a reply as yet. I think I can get the actual wick out of the brass wick housing/Adjuster so even if I can locate a match for the fabric part of the wick itself, this should get it going. Not sure about the flat wicks, BUT, the round wicks are in two parts, the lower part is mostly in the base, if memory serves me right, there was a thin pin retaining it in the wick holder. Then on top of that was a very short piece of wick that just pushed down to the base wick, it was no longer than an inch in length. Again, this is a guess, the flats come in two parts similar to the rounds, if so, it should be easy to replace. If not, and it's in one piece, you will have to unsolder the bottom base plate in the base, and work from there. Not hard, but you will need a very large wattage soldering iron, 300 to 500 watt size!! That brass acts as a huge heat sink. |
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Post by onotoman on May 4, 2011 5:49:48 GMT -5
Hi Guys, Many thanks again for all the invaluable information. If it helps, here are some images of the lamp. The Fuel Vessel is stamped with a 56 and the base of the bonnet (beneath the glass) with 50 S - Could the year of manufacture be 1956 or 1950 ? It seems to have been made by Johnson Clapham & Morris (JCM Type 1) ? but not sure what the CL & Co. is - is this another company, or the end user of the lamp maybe? Anyway, any information about this lamp, most appreciated       |
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Post by onotoman on May 4, 2011 5:52:06 GMT -5
Oh, I forgot to mention that I managed to repair the Wick mechanism by taking the brass wick holder apart and moving the fabric up a bit, then soldering back the height adjuster nut.
So, once I have some correct fuel, I think it's good to go.
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Post by John on May 4, 2011 6:15:47 GMT -5
CL& Co could well be the colliery company, pre 1947. I see you're missing the two glass sealing washers, one top and one bottom, I believe you can get those from the Protector Lamp Co.
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Post by onotoman on May 4, 2011 6:27:16 GMT -5
Hi John, I suppose that would make the lamp pre 1950s then? The washers are there - asbestos I think - you can just see one in the last pic in the brass ring next to the glass. The other is in the base of the larger gauze. CL& Co could well be the colliery company, pre 1947. I see you're missing the two glass sealing washers, one top and one bottom, I believe you can get those from the Protector Lamp Co. |
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Post by Wheldale on May 4, 2011 9:12:46 GMT -5
JCM is the model of the lamp. This type of lamp was used in confined spaces. Sewers and tunnels etc. The numbers stamped on the lamp will be the year when that part was made. CL&co will be the name of the utility company that owned the lamp.
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Post by dazbt on May 4, 2011 9:24:08 GMT -5
CL& Co could well be the colliery company, pre 1947. I see you're missing the two glass sealing washers, one top and one bottom, I believe you can get those from the Protector Lamp Co. What's the chances of CL&Co being Cammell Laird shipbuilders? |
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Post by John on May 4, 2011 9:27:57 GMT -5
CL& Co could well be the colliery company, pre 1947. I see you're missing the two glass sealing washers, one top and one bottom, I believe you can get those from the Protector Lamp Co. What's the chances of CL&Co being Cammell Laird shipbuilders? Could well be Daz, been trying to think of a colliery company with those initials and never even thought about companies like that. I'd presume if it is a shipbuilder, they would be used to test for welding gasses inside the bilge of the ships under construction??? |
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Post by onotoman on May 4, 2011 10:18:09 GMT -5
So the one I have isn't a 'Miners Lamp' as such then guys?
Interesting suggestion about Cammell Laird though :-)
If I wanted the same type of lamp that I used when training at Seaham and Vane Tempest pits in the 1980s, would I be looking for a Protector Type 6 Lamp?
Is this model known as the GR6S - or is that one a later model?
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Post by shropshirebloke on May 4, 2011 10:43:47 GMT -5
With the advent of electronic gas testing equipment it's easy to forget that flame safety lamps were used in many places other than coal mines. GPO telephones and later BT engineers used them when working in cable ducts, to test for the presence of gas (either from leaking gas mains or nearby sewers), and sewermen often used the 'S' (for sewer!) version of the Naylor Spiralarm alarm lamp.
The Spiralarm S even had a holder for hydrogen sulphide detector papers, hydrogen sulphide being a common hazard in sewers.
The telecom lamps I've seen have all been Wolf FS type, distinguished from the mining version by their lack of a magnetic lock and external electric ignition system.
As for the lamp you'd have used in the 1980s, as far as I know only the Protector GR6S (officials' relighter) and SL (electric ignition workmen's lamp) were still in production then, although of course many older lamps by other makers could still have been in use.
The type 6 and GR6S are very similar, but the latter has an injection port in the ring below the glass to allow the admission of an air sample from a rubber bulb. The intermediate 6RS had a nipple in the bonnet above the glass for similar use.
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Post by John on May 4, 2011 10:44:25 GMT -5
So the one I have isn't a 'Miners Lamp' as such then guys? Interesting suggestion about Cammell Laird though :-) If I wanted the same type of lamp that I used when training at Seaham and Vane Tempest pits in the 1980s, would I be looking for a Protector Type 6 Lamp? Is this model known as the GR6S - or is that one a later model? I'm not really sure what the difference is between the type6 and the GR6S, other than I know the type GR6S as the Garforth style lamp. I'd hazard a guess the type 6 is the ones around when I was an apprentice in the 60's, having the shutoff rings. Eric would know more having worked as a Deputy and Undermanager. Here's the link to Protector site.... www.protectorlamp.com/ |
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Post by John on May 4, 2011 10:48:55 GMT -5
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Post by dazbt on May 4, 2011 11:31:13 GMT -5
Coal mining type flame safety lamps were definitely used on ships at least until late in the 1970s (possible still being used), they were used in compliance with safety regulations certainly on some oil tankers, but were also carried on other cargo vessels, used in the circumstances of anyone entering a fuel oil chamber for maintenace purposes. Might be worth an email enquiry to Cammell Laird;
info@cammell-laird.co.uk
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inbye
Shotfirer.
Posts: 114
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Post by inbye on May 4, 2011 13:25:47 GMT -5
So the one I have isn't a 'Miners Lamp' as such then guys? Interesting suggestion about Cammell Laird though :-) If I wanted the same type of lamp that I used when training at Seaham and Vane Tempest pits in the 1980s, would I be looking for a Protector Type 6 Lamp? Is this model known as the GR6S - or is that one a later model? I'm not really sure what the difference is between the type6 and the GR6S, other than I know the type GR6S as the Garforth style lamp. I'd hazard a guess the type 6 is the ones around when I was an apprentice in the 60's, having the shutoff rings. Eric would know more having worked as a Deputy and Undermanager. Here's the link to Protector site.... www.protectorlamp.com/You're right John, the type 6 was the one around in the 60's, with the shutoff rings. Phased out around 1967 & replaced by the Garforth lamp. If onotoman wants the officials lamp from his working days, it could well be the Protector type 6RS (I think shropshirebloke touched on this). The 6RS was a slightly odd lamp in that it was regional, it found favour in the Northeast coalfield. RS stood for "remote sampling" & was sort of in between the type 6 & the GR6S. As shropshirebloke said, the lamp had a nipple about halfway up the bonnet. This led to an annular ring on the inside, drilled with a series of holes. In use a rubber hose connected the nipple to a hand held aspirator bulb, a further hose led to a metal "lance" which could be raised into a high roof cavity. In use it worked very much like the GR6S Garforth. I'm not sure when this lamp was phased out, but believe it was much later than the type 6. I think it was in use alongside the Garforth. Going back to the type 1 (JCM-standing for Johnson, Clapham & Morris) it was a Safety lamp, as opposed to a Miners lamp. I think everyone's right in this thread. I remember seeing a photo of Egyptian tomb explorers of the 1920's, they were carrying Hailwood & Ackroyd combustion tube lamps. Anywhere where a utility safety lamp was needed, the type 1 would be ideal. Imagine a small day-hole where the fan got switched off at the weekend. Before the men went underground with carbide lamps the workings would need inspecting, the last thing you would want would be a complex lamp with special igniting, fuel filling or locking equipment. The type 1, with it's lead rivet lock, match lighting & simple maintenance would be ideal. I can't post images any more, but if anyone could, I could perhaps e-mail some pics of some scarce Protector models, from my collection. |
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Post by John on May 4, 2011 14:25:58 GMT -5
Wow!! these lamps aren't cheap!! 400 quid each new!!! I paid $100 each for mine in the mid 1980's off the rep when I lived in Oz.
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Post by shropshirebloke on May 4, 2011 18:10:54 GMT -5
There's no rhyme or reason to the prices for flame lamps. I collect mining memorabilia on a small scale, but if you look at the main web site devoted to the subject it's full of people with no mining background who are only interested in the rarity of stuff (to satisfy their egos) or its investment value. There's rarely any mention of how it was used.
As a result, the lamps most of us will remember, the later Protectors, are of little interest to these people. I don't know about other pits, but at mine in the late 70s you could buy a new Protector for about £30 from the lamp room - people liked them as a mantle piece decoration at home.
I've bought several as new Protectors (a couple of SLs and a brass, surveyor's Type 6), for under £25 each off eBay - in each case they've never even been lit. A used GR6S in full working order cost me just over £30.
Prices have rocketted over the last couple of years, but there are still bargains to be had - just make sure you know what you're buying. There are many replicas on the market that were made for the (particularly Welsh) tourist trade - OK if you want an ornament but a bit of a disappointment if you want to get back in touch with your past!
At the moment someone on eBay is trying to sell a "genuine miner's lamp", a Wolf FS type, and one of the photos shows the curved brass badge on the cap, complete with the letters "GPO"...
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Post by onotoman on May 5, 2011 7:21:32 GMT -5
Wow, thanks guys, some really useful information there!
And thanks to John too for the links to the original information booklets.
I'll be looking for a Type 6 lamp now as I fancy a self-lighing lamp and as pointed out, it's likely to the the model I used at Seaham.
Best wishes
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