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Post by onotoman on May 5, 2011 10:56:59 GMT -5
Hi Guys, I think Daz maybe spot-on with regards the CL & Co being Cammell Laird & Co - I've just looked at where I bought the lamp and it was from Liverpool! What's the chances of CL&Co being Cammell Laird shipbuilders? Could well be Daz, been trying to think of a colliery company with those initials and never even thought about companies like that. I'd presume if it is a shipbuilder, they would be used to test for welding gasses inside the bilge of the ships under construction??? |
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inbye
Shotfirer.
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Post by inbye on May 5, 2011 12:11:27 GMT -5
Wow, thanks guys, some really useful information there! And thanks to John too for the links to the original information booklets. I'll be looking for a Type 6 lamp now as I fancy a self-lighing lamp and as pointed out, it's likely to the the model I used at Seaham. Best wishes onotoman, if you want to look for a lamp on ebay, let me know if you see one & I'll give it the once over, make sure it's the real thing & not made up from bits & pieces. There are a LOT of Protector lamps out there made up from 2 or 3 lots of different parts. Lamp room staff, at pits in the process of closing, were especially good at this........a good source of beer & fag money... |
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Post by onotoman on May 5, 2011 13:46:30 GMT -5
Many thanks Inbye, I've sent you a PM with a link to a Type 6 I bought last night - got it for £38 including postage so not the end of the world if it needs parts. There is also a 6RS coming up tomorrow evening but it looks well used (I say 'but' although a well used lamp gives authenticity I suppose) and it is described as being from a north east colliery. Wow, thanks guys, some really useful information there! And thanks to John too for the links to the original information booklets. I'll be looking for a Type 6 lamp now as I fancy a self-lighing lamp and as pointed out, it's likely to the the model I used at Seaham. Best wishes onotoman, if you want to look for a lamp on ebay, let me know if you see one & I'll give it the once over, make sure it's the real thing & not made up from bits & pieces. There are a LOT of Protector lamps out there made up from 2 or 3 lots of different parts. Lamp room staff, at pits in the process of closing, were especially good at this........a good source of beer & fag money... |
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Post by shropshirebloke on May 5, 2011 14:13:42 GMT -5
Glad to know you got what you were looking for mate! One tip with Protector self-lighters - ordinary lighter flints work as good as gold for "civilian" use, and are a bloody sight cheaper than pyrophor or whatever their called.
Another tip is avoid Brasso like the plague - it's fine for removing heavy corrosion from an old dismantled lamp, but after that just give them an occasional wipe down with a soft cloth and a few drops of a good gun oil (Ballistol or Napier from your local gun shop). This will protect the metal but avoid turning them into shiny brass ornaments.
Let us know about the 6RS (and the GR6S, SL, MC40, CT33 etc. when you get them - you know you will!!).
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Post by onotoman on May 5, 2011 17:04:33 GMT -5
Thanks Shropshirebloke, I will indeed let you know about the 6 when it arrives - and the 6RS if I go for it - then there's a Patterson coming up soon too and these were made in Gateshead which is not far from us and..... I bought an old Safety Razor a few years back to shave with and now I have around 50 - on the shaving forums this is known as RAD (Razor Acquisition Disorder) - I think I'm now getting SLAD - (Safety Lamp Acquisition Disorder)  |
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Post by shropshirebloke on May 5, 2011 18:17:22 GMT -5
I bought one for old time's sake, then ended up with about twenty at last count. Since then I've branched out into other areas - bits and pieces such as a nice old anemometer for measuring airflow, a 1930s Davis of Derby shotfirer's ohm meter (cost me **** all, a beautiful thing and it STILL WORKS) and all sorts of other stuff, including some lovely items that I've been given by people who knew I'd appreciate and treasure them.
My real treasure trove is my collection of old mining books - they cost damn all to buy and make fascinating reading.
I only buy stuff like this because I want it, and don't want part of my heritage to end up as either a commodity for antiques speculators or in a skip - follow my route and you'll end up poorer, but happier and wiser!!
PS - it probably helps that I've got a very understanding wife who likes old stuff....
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Post by onotoman on May 6, 2011 8:02:37 GMT -5
Hi Shropshirebloke,
You've probably got a better mining collection than Beamish Museum - it's about a mile from us and like all things near, I hadn't been there for about 6 years until last week.
Anyway, they now have a restored lamp room and lamp display with (to me anyway) what look to be quite rare and historic lamps etc. It;s next to the Drift Mine entrance.
I had loads of books on mining from my time at Huwood - Conveyor makers, but sadly they got lost when I married and moved from parents.
I also made a small fortune selling Tirfors/Turfors? (the hand winches used in mines for tightening conveyors etc). When at Huwood I came across a pallet full of new old stock ones, covered in dust in one of the warehouses.
I noticed that the Land rover/Off Roaders were paying £200 and upwards for these hand winches and I asked if I could buy the ones I found. In the end, I was allowed to just take them, as they were never to be used. I sold each of these (10 in all for at least £100 a shot in 1980s!
As for the understanding wife, I allow her to indulge in buying handbags on Ebay, so the odd razor, lamp, fountain pen etc that I buy is fine.
Another tack that I take is to say 'Well I'm only buying this stuff to restore and sell' and just never get around to selling other than the duplicates :-)
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Post by shropshirebloke on May 6, 2011 8:48:42 GMT -5
It's not that big a collection - the other half drew the line at having a 15cwt tub in the back garden!!
As for Tirfors - what do you think the Sylvester was invented for?!? (OK, withdrawing props, but I remember no conveyor box end was complete without a couple of the good old "bull and chains" for tension).
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Post by onotoman on May 7, 2011 6:04:33 GMT -5
Hi Shropshirebloke,
Yes, I'd heard of the Sylvester but I had also heard that it was a lot more dangerous than the Tirfor - the handle didn't have a safety lock and would apparently whiplash in some cases - never used on so couldn't comment.
Back to lamps and the Type 6 arrived yesterday - lovely and appears to be a 1973 and never even used!
Would you have any idea how to get the glass out once the base is removed? I think the flint either needs renewing or at least adjusting as it's not sparking?
The base screws off fine but I can't see any way of getting into the area where the relighter is etc
Any information greatly appreciated
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Post by shropshirebloke on May 7, 2011 8:47:33 GMT -5
Sorry about the Sylvester bit - it was meant to be tongue in cheek - they were offically banned years before I worked in the pit but were still used for jobs thatthey were never designed for (including lifting  ). As for your Type 6 - now you've removed the base you will notice that out of the five pillars protecting the glass, one of them is a double. With the base off you should be able to slide the thinner (the one on the right of the two) down - it should then protrude about half an inch below the bottom ring below the glass. This unlocks the bonnet (the upper part of the lamp above the glass) which should then unscrew. If anything is seized a squirt of light oil into the appropriate joint should do the trick - just give it a while to penetrate. Once you've got to this point everything should be plain sailing - the glass lifts out from the top of the "cage" then you can access the lighter - just watch out for the tiny coil spring in the flint holder!! If you get stuck let us know - otherwise just sit and admire the brilliant simplicity of the design!! PS - for anyone else reading this - the GR6S, 6RS and SL use the same system. |
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Post by onotoman on May 7, 2011 11:10:26 GMT -5
Thanks Shropshirebloke,
I had thought that there must have been a reason for that pillar that drops down - When I turned the bonnet, all came apart really easily - I'll now be able to get to the flint.
That's a clever idea to have that pillar locking everything whilst the base is in place, the base of course being locked with magnet or - I presume on my model - a lead seal or something?
With the JCM1 I have, the glass etc comes out of the bottom by unscrewing an inner screw, which threw me off.
Thanks again for all the help - all I need now is a new rivet for the top of the lock/filler - I dropped the base of the lamp whilst unscrewing it and the rivet snapped in half :-( Luckily the base didn't come to any harm.
I'll post some pics when I get a minute
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Post by John on May 7, 2011 11:39:40 GMT -5
The idea of the way they "lock" together, is to prevent someone opening a lamp and exposing a naked light underground. Workmens lamps were the same, minus the relighting device. They had an element close to the wick, to allow the lamp room attendant to light them. The workmens lamp had a standard steel bonnet that was dark brown in colour.
Locks were either magnetic or lead rivet, my two were lead seals as was the ones we used at Angus Place Colliery. All the other pits I worked at had magnetic base locks.
The lead seals were made from thick lead wire cut to length and crimped each end with sealing pliars.
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inbye
Shotfirer.
Posts: 114
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Post by inbye on May 7, 2011 11:44:27 GMT -5
Just a tip, onotoman, colliery lamp men don't drop lamp vessels as they are trained to hold the vessel & turn the lamp. You can see that with this method, it's impossible to drop anything.
This is especially important for "Wolf" type lamps, as the fuel vessel holds everything in place (why do I think this tip will come in handy for you?)
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Post by Sam from Kent on May 7, 2011 13:50:47 GMT -5
Wasn't it only the aluminium sylvesters that were banned? I remember them still in use up til Thatcher closed us all!
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Post by dazbt on May 7, 2011 15:58:24 GMT -5
Wasn't it only the aluminium sylvesters that were banned? I remember them still in use up til Thatcher closed us all! I can't recall Sylies being 'banned' either Sam, apart from as you say the Aluminium type (although I recall seeing those still in use 'illegally' in the mid 1960s). The Sylvester was far quicker in many applications than either Tirfors or Yales, but probably resulted in more 'thwacks in the mouth' when pushed beyond the users limits. I do remember, 'back-wallers' being banned but never stopped being used when needs must, I also remember some pits at least, banning the use of Tirfors after a series of accidents resultant of the rope slipping through the grips, which might have been the reason that a palletfull became availble to you 'onotaman'. |
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Post by John on May 7, 2011 17:10:12 GMT -5
Every boot end had a couple of Sylvesters keeping it down and the tension on the belts way back. There were problems with them, but that was overcome with the "safety box".
The original use for them was to withdraw roof supports safely in the first mechanized faces before modern hydraulic chocks came on the scene.
From recollection, we used the Tirfors to pull anything, unless an AB15 was available, then"it" made life easier.
There was one occasion I did the five second hundred yards, T/G of a face, Dowty's had been set to allow us to get a new motor onto the face, easy way was with the AB15 rope. Machine staked, motor on its way in. Dowty's skittled, in fact I think we got a double strike.. ;D Ripping lip groaning and making some real horrible noises, me doing 30MPH outbye.. ;D Jeeze a feller can move when he has to!
Luckily, the mining crew got the props set before anything got too nasty!!
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Mick
Shotfirer.
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Post by Mick on May 7, 2011 17:51:31 GMT -5
We used sylvesters at Gomersal when we was gob drawing to get the TCR chocks out of the gob if they got stuck in the floor,The one we had on 11s BB was made out of aluminium and we used to hide it so the boss wouldnt take it off us  . Mick. |
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Post by Sam from Kent on May 8, 2011 5:23:58 GMT -5
We had transformers slung on Monorails in each gate with the chain and sword of a sylvester permanently fixed to it ready for each move up. Very often the box was fixed to the switchgear pallet so that when the heading men pulled the pallet in mysteriously the transformer moved with it!
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Post by shropshirebloke on May 8, 2011 6:16:17 GMT -5
It would appear that my memory's a bit dodgy about Sylvesters being banned! Sam from Kent was right about the aluminium ones being banned because of the spark risk (I think in the 50s), but it would appear that the ban on steel ones, after 31st March 1978, only applied to their use for staking conveyor box ends. I'm indebted to this excellent article: www.pdmhs.com/PDFs/ScannedBulletinArticles/Bulletin%2014-2%20-%20Walter%20Sylvestor%20-%20Potteries%20Inventer%20and%20H.pdfwhich tells you more about the Sylvester than you probably wanted to know!! PS - Onotoman - if you really want to replace the lock rivet you could try soft solder wire of an appropriate diameter, but it might be a bit of a pig to remove without the proper punch type pliers. |
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inbye
Shotfirer.
Posts: 114
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Post by inbye on May 8, 2011 7:35:54 GMT -5
It would appear that my memory's a bit dodgy about Sylvesters being banned! Sam from Kent was right about the aluminium ones being banned because of the spark risk (I think in the 50s), but it would appear that the ban on steel ones, after 31st March 1978, only applied to their use for staking conveyor box ends. I'm indebted to this excellent article: www.pdmhs.com/PDFs/ScannedBulletinArticles/Bulletin%2014-2%20-%20Walter%20Sylvestor%20-%20Potteries%20Inventer%20and%20H.pdfwhich tells you more about the Sylvester than you probably wanted to know!! PS - Onotoman - if you really want to replace the lock rivet you could try soft solder wire of an appropriate diameter, but it might be a bit of a pig to remove without the proper punch type pliers. Shropshirebloke-he doesn't mean the lead rivet, he means the rivet forming the hinge of the lock catch. He dropped the base & snapped it... |
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Post by John on May 8, 2011 7:41:12 GMT -5
It would appear that my memory's a bit dodgy about Sylvesters being banned! Sam from Kent was right about the aluminium ones being banned because of the spark risk (I think in the 50s), but it would appear that the ban on steel ones, after 31st March 1978, only applied to their use for staking conveyor box ends. I'm indebted to this excellent article: www.pdmhs.com/PDFs/ScannedBulletinArticles/Bulletin%2014-2%20-%20Walter%20Sylvestor%20-%20Potteries%20Inventer%20and%20H.pdfwhich tells you more about the Sylvester than you probably wanted to know!! PS - Onotoman - if you really want to replace the lock rivet you could try soft solder wire of an appropriate diameter, but it might be a bit of a pig to remove without the proper punch type pliers. Good article that!! The author Barry Job I think, is a contributor to the Mining History List, Daz is also on that list, so might correct me one way or the other. |
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Post by shropshirebloke on May 8, 2011 8:05:30 GMT -5
Shropshirebloke-he doesn't mean the lead rivet, he means the rivet forming the hinge of the lock catch. He dropped the base & snapped it... Dohhhhhhhhh!!!!!! |
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Post by onotoman on May 9, 2011 4:08:04 GMT -5
Hi Inbye, Shropshirebloke, Yes, indeed, it was the brass rivet that holds the top hinge that I broke - and good tip too about holding the base and turning the rest of the lamp - hopefully I'll get into that habit. I have e-mailed Protector Lamps about a rivet, but they haven't responded yet. I would also imagine that I'll have to buy 100 rivets too. Someone said that their minimum order is £50 - which is £20 more than I paid for the lamp :-( If I buy £50 worth of wicks, flints, rivets, washers etc that'll mean I'll need to buy loads more lamps to make use of the parts ;D Shropshirebloke-he doesn't mean the lead rivet, he means the rivet forming the hinge of the lock catch. He dropped the base & snapped it... Dohhhhhhhhh!!!!!! |
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Post by dazbt on May 9, 2011 14:20:45 GMT -5
Look around for small quantities of soft brass rod before leaping in to paying out a great deal of money for 'genuine replacements', presumably you still have the process of 'engineering' a rivet in place whether bought as a pre-made blank or short length of bar. Modelling shops such as 'Hobby' supply relatively short lengths of brass bar at very low prices, soft brazing rods bought locally might be an option worth considering as well. hobby.uk.com/ |
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Post by onotoman on May 10, 2011 8:52:36 GMT -5
Thanks for all the advice and suggestions guys.
I managed to speak to David Mather at The Protector Lamp Company and he offered to send me a rivet or two. I bought a few flints and some wick to cover the postage cost and give him a bit of business.
It's good to know that we can still get parts at a reasonable cost and that the company is in good (helpful) hands.
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Post by dazbt on May 10, 2011 9:02:20 GMT -5
Thanks for all the advice and suggestions guys. I managed to speak to David Mather at The Protector Lamp Company and he offered to send me a rivet or two. I bought a few flints and some wick to cover the postage cost and give him a bit of business. It's good to know that we can still get parts at a reasonable cost and that the company is in good (helpful) hands. Good for you, and as you say great to get that sort of response from Protector L Co rather than someone ripping you off. |
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Post by onotoman on May 11, 2011 4:40:48 GMT -5
It's started guys - now I've gone and bought an SL Lamp to go with the Type 6 . The SL has a plate soldered onto the main lamp makers plate with the number 0118 stamped into it - would anyone know if this is the number of the colliery or just the lamp number within the lamp room of the particular pit? |
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Post by shropshirebloke on May 11, 2011 6:16:29 GMT -5
That will be the lamp number - they were often renumbered this way.
Have you figured out how you're going to light the SL yet ?
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Post by onotoman on May 11, 2011 7:20:05 GMT -5
Hi Shropshirebloke,
Am I correct in thinking that with the SL, that a current is passed through a platinum wire next to the wick to heat up and cause the lamp to light?
I have some variable power supplies in my workshop etc, so possibly one of these can be set to correct amps?
If all fails, can the SL be lit by just unscrewing the base and using a match?
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Post by shropshirebloke on May 11, 2011 7:50:16 GMT -5
You're right about the electric lighting, but I'm afraid you can't just light it with a match. The "protector" principle that extinguishes the flame when you remove the base works in reverse as well.
You should be ok with the variable power supply, but they need very little voltage and current - with the correct fuel they were meant to light at around 2.5 volts - too much juice would burn out the very fine platinum wire.
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