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Post by Minutor on Mar 18, 2016 11:37:26 GMT -5
The plans are ambitious that's for sure, but mind boggling shafts are being built. Oyu Tolgoi Shaft 2 for example will have a diameter of 10 metres and ore hoisting capacity of 29,000 tonnes per day from around 1200m using two 60 tonne skips when it comes online in 2019. Shaft sinking has also come on a lot especially with the use of SBR's and the pioneering ground freezing used at Boulby is now much more advanced in technique and capability. The polyhalite itself is more akin to anhydrite than sylvinite. The plastic deformation / flow and weak lithologies in the roof we used to struggle with (specifically rotten marl) are absent in the polyhalite. They "should" be able to do it, and I say should in inverted commas because I have never been involved in a mine which has come straight out of the blocks and without unforseen problems. Will they be able to finance it? Is there a market for such a large tonnage of SOP / SOPM given there is also a project in Mexico? There will be substitution as the product will be chlorine free but will it be enough? I understand they are trying to raise the first tranche of $1.6 billion with a mixture of debt and equity and there is talk of a bond or suchlike for the second tranche of $1.9 billion. Big numbers! Ground freezing was used many years before Boulby shafts were sunk, I believe the Germans were the first to used it towards the end of the 19th century. The old NCB used it to sink many shafts, Cotgrave in the 1950's just one example. I recall when we were doing Mining Theory at Tech, we learned about sinking shafts through water, both cement grout under pressure, and freezing, which became the standard method. Boulby had one major problem, the Sherwood sandstone measures were in heavy brine, so probably required much lower temperatures than sinking through the Sherwood sandstone measures, (Bunter) in Nottinghamshire and Yorkshire.Yes, I thought Boulby's freeze was considered pioneering given the depth of the holes (3000 feet or so) and the freeze chamber in the shaft itself
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Post by tygwyn on Jul 20, 2016 16:11:50 GMT -5
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Post by tygwyn on Jul 23, 2016 15:33:34 GMT -5
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Post by John on Jul 24, 2016 7:39:18 GMT -5
I'm still pessimistic Jim, the more I read about their "new" plans the more pessimistic I become. NOW, they are talking three shafts, two for production, one for men and materials. Production shafts will have "Blair" style multi rope winders with 47 tonne skips. Money will still be their biggest hurdle to overcome, times are still hard, plus with the political climate today with Islam being as it is, Nahhhh I can't see the project leaving the planning stage.
Weren't they supposed to be sight clearing this year and the start of shaft sinking this July, which is nearly over by the way, and not one sod of grass has been moved.
I'll believe it when the dozers are delivered on sight and start leveling the main mine sight area.
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Post by John on Nov 9, 2016 9:50:29 GMT -5
There's a rumour circulating that Sirius is pulling out of the North Yorkshire Potash venture, been expecting this for a while.
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Post by John on Nov 10, 2016 14:57:02 GMT -5
More info, how's Sirius going to mine record tonnage of mineral when Boulby is having serious problems mining it, looks like it was a huge mistake changing over from mining potash!! They've laid off over 500 men so I'm informed and are struggling to produce 400 tonnes a shift. Seems the Joy miners are having a job cutting it.
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Post by Wheldale on Nov 10, 2016 17:32:50 GMT -5
So the stuff is hard? I always thought for some reason polyhydrate was soft?
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Post by John on Nov 11, 2016 6:21:48 GMT -5
So the stuff is hard? I always thought for some reason polyhydrate was soft? I thought the same, but they tell me it's hard and is like broken shale to walk on.
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Post by Wheldale on Nov 11, 2016 14:59:39 GMT -5
So the stuff is hard? I always thought for some reason polyhydrate was soft? I thought the same, but they tell me it's hard and is like broken shale to walk on.Maybe they will go back to bore and blast??
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Post by dazbt on Nov 13, 2016 16:07:06 GMT -5
So the stuff is hard? I always thought for some reason polyhydrate was soft? I thought the same, but they tell me it's hard and is like broken shale to walk on.Is it really 'polyhydrate' they are cutting or attempting to cut? (or is it possibly something totally different?)
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Post by John on Nov 15, 2016 16:31:21 GMT -5
Polyhalite.
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Post by dazbt on Nov 15, 2016 17:33:28 GMT -5
Now that's better, polyhalite (now we've established what it actually is)is approx.3.5 on Mohs hardness scale, which isn't very hard at all, possibly slightly harder than anthracite, so is the problem not so much the hardness (or the classic Mining Engineer's definitive 'compressive strength' excuse)? There are so many other factors involved in a product's 'cuttability', hardness quite often means very little and sometimes hardness can relate to brittleness which can be an advantage, sooner try to shear hard cannel coal than a softer 'woodier' bituminous coal, but, once again I am probably wrong.
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Post by tygwyn on Nov 17, 2016 13:11:33 GMT -5
How does the hardness of potash compare to the 3.5 of the polyhalite Daz?
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Post by John on Nov 17, 2016 14:42:58 GMT -5
I don't know if Daz can answer that one Jim, but Potash is like rock salt to mine, cuts pretty easy with continuous miners. I was amazed at how quick it cuts with the first Heliminer, sump in at the top and lower the head full ten ton car load in seconds, just like a hot knife through butter. The guys on the Boulby site reckon, the stuff they are cutting now is real hard, like broken shale to walk on. They tell me they are lucky to cut 400 tonnes a shift, which is not looking good for the life of the mine. I think they are also having more CH4 problems down there too.
Maybe it's this info that's putting Sirius off the project??
I said a while back, this is new territory, deeper and probably different mining to potash
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Post by John on Nov 17, 2016 14:48:25 GMT -5
Now that's better, polyhalite (now we've established what it actually is)is approx.3.5 on Mohs hardness scale, which isn't very hard at all, possibly slightly harder than anthracite, so is the problem not so much the hardness (or the classic Mining Engineer's definitive 'compressive strength' excuse)? There are so many other factors involved in a product's 'cuttability', hardness quite often means very little and sometimes hardness can relate to brittleness which can be an advantage, sooner try to shear hard cannel coal than a softer 'woodier' bituminous coal, but, once again I am probably wrong. The fellers say it's a lot harder than expected Daz, you're quoting the pure mineral as to the mined mineral which will have impurities in it. Seems it's knocking the crap out the CM's, the only time I've seen CM's having a hard time is going through dykes in the southern coalfields of NSW. Some are even saying they may have to go back to drill and fire and probably use the CM's as glorified loaders, either way, they have laid a lot of men off and are not getting the output they expected. Doesn't even look like they are cutting enough to pay the bills.
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Post by tygwyn on Nov 17, 2016 14:58:31 GMT -5
The reason I asked about the hardness was firstly as I thought Daz had comparison figures and 2nd-ly,as I remember seeing a photo of a CM cutting potash,think it was in Russia,could be wrong on that,but it looked like a heap of shale after cutting anyway,as it would be I presume with the teeth on the cutting drum.
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Post by John on Nov 17, 2016 15:47:25 GMT -5
The reason I asked about the hardness was firstly as I thought Daz had comparison figures and 2nd-ly,as I remember seeing a photo of a CM cutting potash,think it was in Russia,could be wrong on that,but it looked like a heap of shale after cutting anyway,as it would be I presume with the teeth on the cutting drum. I can't comment on potash in Russia Jim, I have seen videos of potash being longwalled looked like chunks of white chalk on the AFC, but at Boulby it's large crystals like rock salt. Potash is mixed with salt anyway, that and none soluble clays are removed in the process plant, then back when I worked there they were dumped on the sea bed via the outlet pipe on the seabed, via a pipeline down the tailings shaft and along a 3/4 mile long tunnel under the seabed.I'll have to upload some photos to Photobucket and embed them here to show you.
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Post by dazbt on Nov 17, 2016 16:43:29 GMT -5
The reason I asked about the hardness was firstly as I thought Daz had comparison figures and 2nd-ly,as I remember seeing a photo of a CM cutting potash,think it was in Russia,could be wrong on that,but it looked like a heap of shale after cutting anyway,as it would be I presume with the teeth on the cutting drum. It starts to get a bit complicated here Tygwin, the term 'Potash' tends to be used to describe a multitude of mineral combinations, the Potash being successfully sheared by Lonwalling systems in various parts of the world includes a conglomeration of similar minerals including Polyhalite and Potash in its various descriptive formations. Potash itself is listed as being equivalent to 2.4 Mohs but in its formation as Trona it is registered as 2.5Mohs. I've never been directly involved in the mining of either but what I can say is that the first 1,000 hp shearers were developed to Longwall Trona in the US, the first of these (then mammoth) machines were just about destroyed in a fairly short time, it wasn't particularly the hardness of the Trona (or even the classic brittleness) but I believe it was its reluctance to be sheared 'end on' along its fibrous nature. I'm absolutely sure that you of all people will appreciate the difference between coping with coal seams approached 'end on' as opposed to tackling it 'on bord' or even accros the 'bord / board', the options often being the difference between successfull Longwall shearing production or not and sometimes accounting for the successfull application of treppaning as an alternative. Again a bit of a guess but I reckon the most successfull applications of CMs would be where they are applied 'face on'rather than end on at least in coal cutting. There are plenty of factors other than material hardness to be considered, (by the way, I've been 'YOU' three times now on the alternative forum, I'm quite proud of that accolade) I've seen some fantastic photographs of Potash Longawll machinery, maybe Longwall Shearing is the way to go for Sirius.
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Post by fortythreesflyer on Nov 17, 2016 20:15:18 GMT -5
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Post by John on Nov 18, 2016 6:37:36 GMT -5
The reason I asked about the hardness was firstly as I thought Daz had comparison figures and 2nd-ly,as I remember seeing a photo of a CM cutting potash,think it was in Russia,could be wrong on that,but it looked like a heap of shale after cutting anyway,as it would be I presume with the teeth on the cutting drum. It starts to get a bit complicated here Tygwin, the term 'Potash' tends to be used to describe a multitude of mineral combinations, the Potash being successfully sheared by Lonwalling systems in various parts of the world includes a conglomeration of similar minerals including Polyhalite and Potash in its various descriptive formations. Potash itself is listed as being equivalent to 2.4 Mohs but in its formation as Trona it is registered as 2.5Mohs. I've never been directly involved in the mining of either but what I can say is that the first 1,000 hp shearers were developed to Longwall Trona in the US, the first of these (then mammoth) machines were just about destroyed in a fairly short time, it wasn't particularly the hardness of the Trona (or even the classic brittleness) but I believe it was its reluctance to be sheared 'end on' along its fibrous nature. I'm absolutely sure that you of all people will appreciate the difference between coping with coal seams approached 'end on' as opposed to tackling it 'on bord' or even accros the 'bord / board', the options often being the difference between successfull Longwall shearing production or not and sometimes accounting for the successfull application of treppaning as an alternative. Again a bit of a guess but I reckon the most successfull applications of CMs would be where they are applied 'face on'rather than end on at least in coal cutting. There are plenty of factors other than material hardness to be considered, (by the way, I've been 'YOU' three times now on the alternative forum, I'm quite proud of that accolade) I've seen some fantastic photographs of Potash Longawll machinery, maybe Longwall Shearing is the way to go for Sirius. No chance of longwalling in North Yorkshire Daz, they are stuck with Bord and Pillar or variations of it due to the Sherwood water measures above them. Boulby was close to being lost at one stage through an inrush of the heavy brine. From what I gather the whole south side in potash was lost and still being pumped out after many years. At Boulby it's about 600 feet above the Boulby Potash seam, it presented serious problems for the shaft sinkers as the water bearing strata is very thick and under tremendous pressure. Personally, and having worked in it, I think the Boulby Potash seam could have been longwalled, had it not been for the Sherwood water bearing strata. I can't comment for the lower beds though as I've never seen the stuff, but same applies regarding the water danger.
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Post by John on Nov 18, 2016 6:39:02 GMT -5
Link doesn't work for me, justs ends up a white page.
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Post by fortythreesflyer on Nov 18, 2016 7:01:50 GMT -5
Worked ok at my end, maybe location sensitive. £1bn funding plan announced for North Yorkshire potash mine Photo: Funding arrangements for a new potash mine in the North York Moors National Park creating more than three thousand jobs are expected to be approved by shareholders later this month.
Sirius Minerals wants to dig billions of tonnes of potash, a type of fertiliser, a mile below moors and the seabed near Whitby. The company announced today that it wants to raise a billion pounds to help fund the project by issuing shares and bonds.
Sirius expects to progress the project in two phases: the initial construction phase and the expansion phase.
The first phase is intended to achieve first production from the mine by the end of 2021 and a capacity of 10 million tonnes a year by mid-2024. MP for Redcar Anna Turley said it was welcome news for her constituents. This financing news is great for Teesside. Sirius Minerals’ polyhalite project is very well supported locally and we are looking forward to seeing the start of construction.
Sirius can become a significant business for both the area and the UK for generations to come and the jobs and investment they are bringing to Teesside are very welcome.”
– ANNA TURLEY MP In a statement the company said it represents a significant business investment in the UK. I am delighted to announce this proposed fully underwritten financing package which – together with our new strategic investor, Hancock, announced last week – provides the comprehensive Stage 1 financing required to start construction of our North Yorkshire polyhalite project.
We thank existing shareholders for their continued support as well as the new institutional investors who recognise this unique opportunity to help develop what we believe to be the world’s largest highgrade known polyhalite deposit into a major low cost multi‐nutrient fertilizer business.
We are also pleased to provide an opportunity for our existing shareholders to participate via the Open Offer which is designed to reduce the dilution of this proposed fundraising via subscribing for new shares. In order for today’s proposed financing to be implemented, we will be holding a General Meeting on 25 November 2016, at which point the Company will be seeking shareholder approval.
This project will create jobs in North Yorkshire and Teesside, and represents a significant business investment in the UK. It’s been a long journey to this point, and we still have some way to go, but I want to thank everyone who has supported the Company in its efforts to reach this major milestone. Once we have received shareholder approval, we want to get on with the job of delivering this compelling value proposition, not only for our shareholders but also for the North Yorkshire community.”
– CHRIS FRASER, MANAGING DIRECTOR AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER Last updated Wed 2 Nov 2016 BUSINESS MINING POTASH SHARE TWEET PLUS REDDIT
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Post by John on Nov 18, 2016 10:02:29 GMT -5
That's over two weeks old, I think Sirius are getting nervy after Boulby's problems. What I picked up this week from a feller who appears to work at Boulby is a Fisk Newspaper printed a story this week that Sirius are looking to sell the lease options. Still it boils down to this, the mining engineers at Boulby have plenty of experience in the new mineral and can't make ends meet, so how does Sirus hope to do better at far greater depths and hotter conditions. 400 tonnes a shift won't even pay the electric bills at Boulby. Someone suggested they might have to go back to undercut, drill and fire, I also pick up they are having CH4 problems big time too. Not a pretty picture!
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Post by tygwyn on Nov 18, 2016 15:37:41 GMT -5
I realise your a fan of Boulby John,but lets face facts,Boulby was on its arse with limited time left before you heard this rumour,tale or news,now its a bleeding heart story,
Not un-similar to Daw Mill before the fire.
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Post by John on Nov 18, 2016 17:28:27 GMT -5
Trona is not potash Daz, it's sodium bicarbonate, bicarbs as we know it better by, used in cooking and glass making, plus as a flux in brazing.
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Post by John on Nov 18, 2016 17:37:16 GMT -5
I realise your a fan of Boulby John,but lets face facts,Boulby was on its arse with limited time left before you heard this rumour,tale or news,now its a bleeding heart story, Not un-similar to Daw Mill before the fire. Saw it all in the mid 70's Jim, it was headline news and front page news in the Gazette, five new mines and one solution mine. The solution mine was cancelled after their permits were withdrawn on safety grounds. All the other companies, Shell etc dropped their plans, OK nobody really knew what to expect, Boulby was struggling with conditions like big gas blows, CH4 problems and working out what best method to mine the mineral. Shell and the others knew Boulby was bleeding red ink, took them many years before they started turning a profit. Now looks like they are back to square one, bleeding red ink and getting nowhere.
I wonder why they don't just return to potash mining?? At least they did turn a profit, plenty left in the lease.
Anyway, I don't see Sirius getting going, I stated way back their plans are grandiose, and they have put all their eggs in one disastrous basket.
Time will tell.
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Post by dazbt on Nov 19, 2016 4:22:18 GMT -5
Trona is not potash Daz, it's sodium bicarbonate, bicarbs as we know it better by, used in cooking and glass making, plus as a flux in brazing.
quite right J my apologies, confusing Potash with Soda Ash
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Post by tygwyn on Feb 27, 2017 18:54:47 GMT -5
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Post by John on Jan 27, 2018 12:36:22 GMT -5
Looks like the Woodsmith mine has been started, top of the shaft has been driven and they are going to sink the shafts by the conventional manner, dill, fire and load by grapple. The production shaft is to have two Blair style winders each installed with two 47 ton skips. Three shafts are planned, main hoisting shaft, service shaft and an access shaft to the haulage tunnel to lower the parts of the TBI down. Their webpage has changed a lot with lots of photos of the progress so far.
I just hope it's not all in vain as Boulby is have serious troubles in the polyhalite seam, from what I gather it's very hard to cut with continuous miners and knocks the crap out of them. Remember, Boulby is using the largest CM's that Joy make too.
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Post by John on Feb 14, 2018 15:57:56 GMT -5
So they have now changed their plans on shaft sinking and using a shaft boring machine like this one in the video.
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