fi
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Posts: 6
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Post by fi on Jun 15, 2010 19:05:49 GMT -5
hi, i have a historical question: can anyone tell me who or what a ripper was - at around the turn of the 19th - 20th century?
i remember coming across a list of job titles which mentioned a ripper was a mine worker who opened up the tunnel with a pick axe, but i can't find it again. am i right in assuming this job was taken over by a machine called a tunnel header? was the machine itself ever known as a ripper?
i am doing research for a book - not about mining, but this is part of it and i really need to know! thanks.
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Post by John on Jun 16, 2010 5:57:18 GMT -5
Basically you have it, the roads leading up to a face are called gate roads. The one with the conveyor in, or prior to that transport to remove the coal, was and is called the main gate, or Mother gate, the other road is called the tail gate or supply gate.
Each gate road is higher than the seam, in more modern times these would be supported by steel semi circular steel arch supports set at regular intervals, 3ft 6ins. The "RIP" was the rock above the face, the RIPPER'S job was to remove the rock above the face to the size of the gate road and set the steel arches called "RINGS". Main gate would have three sections as it was a larger section than the tail gate. These were called the legs and crown. The rock that was "fired" down was used to construct walls called "PACKS" either side of the road and extending into the void left from mining the coal. Usually a couple of yards thick. The left over rock was transported to surface and dumped on the spoil heaps.
There was also a job called "BACK RIPPING". A back ripper repaired main roads by removing the twisted arch supports (rings) and ripped out the rock to the height of the new supports.
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Post by John on Jun 16, 2010 7:13:33 GMT -5
Here's a diagram of a backrip. Been looking for a ripping lip picture, so far unable to locate one, but as soon as I do I'll post it.
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fi
Trainee
Posts: 6
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Post by fi on Jun 16, 2010 18:43:06 GMT -5
thanks John that's really great, very helpful, thanks for the pic too.
do you happen to know if the term rip and ripper were regional at all?
cheers, fi
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Post by John on Jun 16, 2010 21:17:27 GMT -5
My guess would be yes, I forgot to answer all your question. Yes machinery took the hard work out of ripping at the face. Advanced headings with road heading machines which cut the profile of the road were used. Which eliminated the "stable holes" thus reducing face manpower by at least 8 men.
Prior to that, machines like the "Peak Ripping machine" were tried during my time in the late 1960's. I never saw them so cannot comment on whether they were successful or not.
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Post by dazbt on Jun 17, 2010 1:43:16 GMT -5
Rip, ripping and ripper were terms used throughout the majority of the UK coal fields, but in Scotland and some Northern mining areas the terms Brush, brushing and brusher were used to mean the same.
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Post by John on Jun 17, 2010 6:47:36 GMT -5
Isn't brushing referring to "cleaning" the floor Daz?? Both in coal and hardrock "Brushing referred to running the continuous miner's head along the floor to gain more height or remove "heaved floor" or level the floor.
Not say our Scots cousins didn't have that term for ripping, but just seems odd that a common term like brushing would mean something different in the industry in other parts.
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Post by dazbt on Jun 17, 2010 8:11:54 GMT -5
Isn't brushing referring to "cleaning" the floor Daz?? Both in coal and hardrock "Brushing referred to running the continuous miner's head along the floor to gain more height or remove "heaved floor" or level the floor. Not say our Scots cousins didn't have that term for ripping, but just seems odd that a common term like brushing would mean something different in the industry in other parts. You are probably correct John, so just ignore my comment about brushing ............. not very often that I get anything right and when I think I have done or said something right, I have to have confirmation from my wife, who usually corrects it for me !!
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Post by John on Jun 17, 2010 8:24:04 GMT -5
Isn't brushing referring to "cleaning" the floor Daz?? Both in coal and hardrock "Brushing referred to running the continuous miner's head along the floor to gain more height or remove "heaved floor" or level the floor. Not say our Scots cousins didn't have that term for ripping, but just seems odd that a common term like brushing would mean something different in the industry in other parts. You are probably correct John, so just ignore my comment about brushing ............. not very often that I get anything right and when I think I have done or said something right, I have to have confirmation from my wife, who usually corrects it for me !! Well next time get her to check your post/s.. ;D ;D
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Post by John on Jun 17, 2010 8:26:00 GMT -5
It would be interesting to hear from one of our Scots colleague's though!
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Post by dazbt on Jun 17, 2010 12:48:35 GMT -5
You are probably correct John, so just ignore my comment about brushing ............. not very often that I get anything right and when I think I have done or said something right, I have to have confirmation from my wife, who usually corrects it for me !! Well next time get her to check your post/s.. ;D ;D Well ............................... I did what you advised John and as soon as The Lovely Lady Margaret (the wife) arrived home from her shift at the pit, I asked her the question, so, ................. whilst I continued to make her dinner, she came up with the following;"http://www.archive.org/stream/glossaryofmining00fayarich/glossaryofmining00fayarich_djvu.txt Brushing. 1. (Scot). That part of the roof or floor of a seart removed to form roadways. (Barrewman) 2- Digging up the bottom or the tak- ing down the top of an entry / or room for the purpose of admitting cars where the seam of coal is too thin or shallow for the admission of cars. See Brush, 3... (Williams,!?. Craig Dawson Coal Co., 146 North- western, p. 736) Brushing bed (Scot). The stratum brushed or ripped (Gresley). See also Brush, 3. Brushing shot A shot so placed as to remove a portion of the roof to increase height of a haulage way. See also Brush, 8. Rip (Mid.). To cut or blast down the roof or top (Gresley). Also to take up the floor or bottom. (Barrow- man) ****************** www.coalportal.com/static_page.cfm?page=glossary&CFID=1708257&CFTOKEN=10361670&jsessionid=843032a56e0845a243e03970443c8045551a#BTO BRUSH; To remove rock or coal from the top (roof) of an opening (heading), thereby increasing the height of working. Used particularly in the longwall method of mining. The rock is packed elsewhere to provide support for the roof. The term has also been applied to the floor and roof. BRUSHERS; Men who remove the rock from the roof or floor of a heading as a separate operation from mining coal BRUSHING; Digging up the bottom or taking down the top to give more headroom in roadways. ****************** www.aboutpreciousmetals.com/Mining/Glossary/brushing.htm Brushing A term used to make a brow or low access (area with limited head room) larger by digging out the floor or taking out the top to increase the working space. ***************** xmlwords.infomine.com/xmlwords.htm?term=ripping3. The breaking down of the roof in mine roadways to increase the headroom for haulage, traffic, and ventilation. See also: brushing; second ripping Source: Nelson Brushing; 1. Scot. That part of the roof or floor of a seam removed to form roadways. 2. Digging up the bottom or taking down the top of an entry or room, where the seam of coal is too thin or shallow for the purpose of admitting cars. See also: brush 3. Cutting or blasting down the roof of a coal seam. Source: Arkell 4. Ripping; normally enlarging a road by taking down the roof, but extended to sides and floor as well. Also called canch. Source: Mason" I've got a lot of faith in that lass !!! ;D
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Post by John on Jun 17, 2010 13:36:01 GMT -5
Well I did say I hadn't heard it used in that context, only in "brushing the floor".
Thee shud send that lass to get her class one ticket!! ;D ;D
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Post by dazbt on Jun 18, 2010 16:03:48 GMT -5
Well I did say I hadn't heard it used in that context, only in "brushing the floor". Thee shud send that lass to get her class one ticket!! ;D ;D She's already got one, shotfirer's cert., mechanic of the mine and an HNC in Electrical Engineering, she took 56lb of woollen rags out to the rag and bone man and came back with a fistfull of certificates, I told her she'd been done ............ 56lb of woolies was worth at least a goldfish and two balloons.
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Post by John on Jun 18, 2010 16:37:56 GMT -5
Well I did say I hadn't heard it used in that context, only in "brushing the floor". Thee shud send that lass to get her class one ticket!! ;D ;D She's already got one, shotfirer's cert., mechanic of the mine and an HNC in Electrical Engineering, she took 56lb of woollen rags out to the rag and bone man and came back with a fistfull of certificates, I told her she'd been done ............ 56lb of woolies was worth at least a goldfish and two balloons. You're showing your age Daz, rag and bone man?? I'll bet your Grand kids have never heard of one. Remember when they used to ride down the street on a horse and cart shouting "rag 'n bones" Well at least I think they were shouting that, might have been a Russian dialect though! R&B men are probably as rare as wooden headstocks now. And rarer than an AB15 cutter driver. ;D
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fi
Trainee
Posts: 6
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Post by fi on Jun 20, 2010 17:12:49 GMT -5
pls thank the Lovely Lady Margaret from me, great suggestions - have almost got it
i still need to know if the actual machine (tunnel header) was ever referred to as a ripper...
going back fifty, i remember rag n bone men in london - and the coal men emptying sacks of coal down into the cellar - didn't the rag n' bone men call "any old iron"?
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Post by John on Jun 20, 2010 18:02:09 GMT -5
pls thank the Lovely Lady Margaret from me, great suggestions - have almost got it i still need to know if the actual machine (tunnel header) was ever referred to as a ripper... going back fifty, i remember rag n bone men in london - and the coal men emptying sacks of coal down into the cellar - didn't the rag n' bone men call "any old iron"? The only true ripping machine I recall, though never saw one, was "The Peake Ripping Machine" To be honest, I don't think it was any competition for four strong lads drilling, firing and hand loading the rip out. If it was, there'd have been hundreds of them around. The roadheaders were Doscos, Anderson Strathclydes and a Swedish make that for the moment eludes me. Our rag and bone men used to shout "rag 'n bones". At least that was what me late Mam translated it to. ;D
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Post by dazbt on Jun 21, 2010 13:59:49 GMT -5
pls thank the Lovely Lady Margaret from me, great suggestions - have almost got it i still need to know if the actual machine (tunnel header) was ever referred to as a ripper... going back fifty, i remember rag n bone men in london - and the coal men emptying sacks of coal down into the cellar - didn't the rag n' bone men call "any old iron"? I've asked Mags about the use of the term 'Ripping Machine' being given to what were otherwise officially known as 'Road Headers' and she says yes they were, colloquially, particularly when used in the context of Longwalling roadways. The term 'Ripping' was used to describe one of the several different methods of using a road header or tunneling machine, a 'ripping head' was usually a double cutting head that rotated on a 90deg axis to the boom whilst a 'milling head' was usually a single cone shaped drum that rotated at the end of a boom in the same axis, much like a rotary twist drill. There have been other types of machines designed or adapted as ripping machines, the Gullick Dobson Impact Ripper and Webster Cutter Loader, other road heading machines made by Dosco, Anderson and possibly the one you mentioned of Swedish manufacture was originally the Voest Alpine series of machines now incorporated into the Sandvik group of companies. There have also been variant designs of Longwall shearers to either include the dual functions of cutting a face line and then being used to range up and cut out above the coal seam at each end of the face to form the arch of gate roads, these machines were known as 'Ripper Rangers'. Dowty did design and manufacture a shearer type long reach gearhead that was specifically to be used as a face end ripping machine, not sure if any of those ever went into production but at least one was made and tested. Mags asks if she can carry on with her knitting now, but she will be available to help later if she can. [/quote]
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fi
Trainee
Posts: 6
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Post by fi on Jun 23, 2010 6:49:24 GMT -5
Mags - many thanks for that, i am well and truly informed. very interesting i think the picture i have has a milling head. Actually i've got some knitting questions too ...but i don't think the lads would appreciate turning the site into a knitting forum John, when you say firing - that is presumably with dynamite is it?
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Post by John on Jun 23, 2010 7:53:11 GMT -5
Explosives yes.
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Post by dazbt on Jun 24, 2010 11:08:17 GMT -5
Here's a link to some information on Road Heading machine operational configurations, shows ripping and milling (auger) heads; tinyurl.com/27lpgev
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fi
Trainee
Posts: 6
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Post by fi on Jun 24, 2010 18:47:46 GMT -5
thank you very much, you've all been a great help.
- i actually need to know about the very early primitive tunnelling machines - before steam, turned by hand, i think they were introduced into mines right at the end of the 19th century. i am not suggesting anyone actually remembers them... but has anyone got any references ? sorry to be so picky.
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Post by John on Jun 24, 2010 19:36:18 GMT -5
Early 1800's to late 1800's would have been a hand auger to drill holes, fill them with black powder, stick a straw fuse in, light it and run like hell!! Pre hand auger was star drill, one man to hold it, one man to hit it with a large hammer. Most collieries of that day would only work the height of the seam, so you'd have to have crawled everywhere. Those old mine owners were after coal only, mining rock was wasteful. And colliers would only be paid to hew coal.
My guess would be a couple of main roads for ventilation and pony haulage would be of a reasonable height, ie to get the pony through and the rest pretty low.
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Post by dazbt on Jun 28, 2010 16:18:35 GMT -5
thank you very much, you've all been a great help. - i actually need to know about the very early primitive tunnelling machines - before steam, turned by hand, i think they were introduced into mines right at the end of the 19th century. i am not suggesting anyone actually remembers them... but has anyone got any references ? sorry to be so picky. In a joint effort with Mags I’ve had a look for references to Ripping Machines and any mechanised form of heading machines other than in seam (i.e. ‘in seam’ being the taking of coal only, rather than coal and roof or floor ‘rock’) in use prior to 1900, without result, that’s not to say that such machines didn’t exist, but if they did they weren’t successful enough to warrant serious recording of their operation. In all honesty I can’t believe that many if any type of coalface machinery was ever steam powered, again I could be wrong, I recently learned that some collieries had underground roadways illuminated by means of ‘gas lamps’. As mechanisation was introduced compressed air was used extensively prior to electricity to power a variety of power tools underground including the earliest coal cutting machines, in fact compressed air turbine driven shearers were still being used in modern collieries until well into the 1960s. The earliest reference to a form of mechanised ripping ‘we’ could find (amongst Mags knitting patterns) was this; The Champion Percussive Machine referred to was to later become the better known Siskol Percussive Machine, used mainly within seam, I believe; on a similar principle to the Siskol machine;
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Post by John on Jun 29, 2010 7:05:50 GMT -5
Steam was tried on U/G machinery Daz, obviously problems arose the further inbye they operated. I came across several mentions when doing searches. Never saved any links to them.
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Post by dazbt on Jun 29, 2010 14:38:13 GMT -5
Steam was tried on U/G machinery Daz, obviously problems arose the further inbye they operated. I came across several mentions when doing searches. Never saved any links to them. Not just tried, I know that steam was used underground, sometimes piped from the surface and also some coal mines had underground boilers, but I had the impression that the main use of such steam was for driving stationary haulage engines, air compressors and some pit bottom pumping. I can't help but visualise it being a nightmare to facilitate steam pressure at a coalface for all sorts of problematical reasons, but I'm certainly not sure that it wouldn't have been tried prior to compressed air taking over. One other guess that I would make (a guess, rather than anything based on factual dates) is that the introduction of early mechanisation, early power drills and coal cutters coincided with the introduction of compressed air systems underground. It would be interesting to hear/read/see the details of any steam powered cutting machines ............ another job for the mining history academic bookworms?
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fi
Trainee
Posts: 6
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Post by fi on Jul 1, 2010 17:13:45 GMT -5
Joh, Daz, Mag, all - thank you ! You are a mine of information ;D
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Post by John on Jul 2, 2010 7:25:17 GMT -5
Joh, Daz, Mag, all - thank you ! You are a mine of information ;D That's the aim of the site Fi, combined with my website of the same name, to provide as much historical information within one area on the whole UK mining industry.
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Post by erichall on Oct 5, 2010 6:59:40 GMT -5
can't recall steam being used underground, but in the 50's & 60's (and later I expect) there was still a lot of compressed air. This was used more in gassey seams and especially in cross- measure drifting through hard rock, and before the advent of the Heavy Duty roadheaders such as the Dosco 2A's. Under the old cut & fire days in headings, the drilling machines were often the aforementioned Siskol machine, but especially the Holman Silver three's. These consisted of a compressed air drilling machine, usually supported by a hydraulic leg to hold the weight, a hexagonal drill rod and a Tungsten carbide tipped drill bit. It operated on the Jack hammer principle, and in large drifts, specially adapted drill rigs, holding several drills at various heights, were used . These drills would be used to drill the face of the heading in various patterns, since the principle was then to fire the face of the heading at one go, using delay detonators, and a more powerful explosive than that usually used underground in coal measures. When the dirt had been fired it would often be filled out using compressed air- driven loading machines, such as the old Eimco 21 Rocker Shovel, which towed a tub behind it, and literally 'threw the debris over itself into the tub behind.'
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Post by erichall on Oct 5, 2010 7:16:02 GMT -5
Hi, Fi, On the topic of 'Rippers' etc. from my own experience, the term Ripper was usually attached to someone who worked with Stone rather than coal. So a ripper often refered to the man who ripped the stone from above the seam after the removal of the coal, and in order to create the 'gates'. The ripper would also be the man who set the steel arches. The Collier was the face-worker responsible for filling the coal onto the face belt or into tubs for transport out of the pit, hence the other term 'Filler' Where the floor behind the face had to be lifted, whether to allow the face to advance, instead of 'Ripping' the stone above, and where the roadway had suffered floor-lift or heave, this was refered to as 'Dinting' However, as you have already discovered, there is no universal 'language' in mining, and it varies from area to area, and even pit to pit. Two examples I found of this when I moved from S.Yorks into N.Derbyshire, a matter of a mere 20 miles, I quickly discovered:- The Armoured Flexible conveyor which traversed a mechanised face was almost universally termed a 'Panzer, but in N.Derb. it was termed the 'Crawley', whilst the other one I found on my first shift underground in N.D when I asked to on the telephone to be put in touch with 'Box 'oil', a request which confopunded the telephone operator, until I remembered it's N.D. name and asked for the Deputies' Cabin, the underground office used by the deputies etc.
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Post by John on Oct 5, 2010 9:36:27 GMT -5
can't recall steam being used underground, but in the 50's & 60's (and later I expect) there was still a lot of compressed air. This was used more in gassey seams and especially in cross- measure drifting through hard rock, and before the advent of the Heavy Duty roadheaders such as the Dosco 2A's. Under the old cut & fire days in headings, the drilling machines were often the aforementioned Siskol machine, but especially the Holman Silver three's. These consisted of a compressed air drilling machine, usually supported by a hydraulic leg to hold the weight, a hexagonal drill rod and a Tungsten carbide tipped drill bit. It operated on the Jack hammer principle, and in large drifts, specially adapted drill rigs, holding several drills at various heights, were used . These drills would be used to drill the face of the heading in various patterns, since the principle was then to fire the face of the heading at one go, using delay detonators, and a more powerful explosive than that usually used underground in coal measures. When the dirt had been fired it would often be filled out using compressed air- driven loading machines, such as the old Eimco 21 Rocker Shovel, which towed a tub behind it, and literally 'threw the debris over itself into the tub behind.' You could well have been "talking" about hard rock mining there Eric!! My first encounter with "air legs" was at Boulby mine, Britains first and only potash mine. The contractors who sank the mine and opened it up used air legs to drill the shot holes and Eimco air "shovels", catapillar tracked that threw the rock into Eimco LHD's. Last time I saw the Eimco "shovel" was when the contractors drove the shaft sump access road for the bottom of the ore bins at Boulby. All the road drivages I recall with the NCB at Clifton were driven by drilling the rock face with the electric "rams heads" firing in the solid and loading out with M&C3's onto scraper chains. Great little machines were the M&C 3 loaders!! Last of of those I saw was still in full operating condition, in use and years old and that was at BG's Marblaegis Mine at East Leake. From what Shane Phillip's told me, they use Joy continuous miners now at Marblaegis mine. So no doubt the old M&C 3 has been retired.
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