Pit Hierarchy.

[John]

For none mining types.
Mine Manager. 1st class certificate of competancy
Mine Undermanager. 2nd class .. .. ..
Deputy 3rd class .. .. ..

Electrical Engineer in Charge. Colliery Elec Engineers certificate.
Mechanical Engineer in Charge. Mechanical Eng Certificate.

Deputy Manager.. he'd have to have a class 1 certificate.
District Overman.. at least a class three certificate.
Senior Overman... at least a class 2 certificate.

Shotfirer, a very junior official holding a shot firing ticket.

The Manager is totally in control of ALL operations at a mine and legally responsible for everything that goes off both surface and underground. He appoints ALL staff and authorises in writing everyone who works at the mine.

The Under Manager is responsible for all operations underground and is responsible to report any problems to the Manager.

The Deputy is responsible for the safe operation of his district and the personel working within his district.

[brierley]

Just to clarify your hierarchy list, there are only 3 statutory appointments in a British mine, viz. 1.the Deputy, who qualifies with a New style Deputies Certificate. 2.The Unit surveyor. 3. The Colliery Manager who must possess a 1st. Class Cert. of Competency granted by H.S.E. Most senior managerial positions were created under a "jobs for the boys" process and introduced in the late '50's

[John]

It all depends on how many men are employed underground/total horsepower used and or Kw of electric horsepower employed in machinery.
But basically I'm stating qulifications required by law for a particular job.
Manager 1st class certificate.
Undermanager, 2nd class certificate
Deputy 3rd class certificate
I actually forgot the surveyors ticket
Electrical Engineer in Charge -certificated and vice versa for Mechanical Engineer in Charge.

I knew of several fellers I have worked with since leaving the UK coal industry who had the 2nd class certificate ie Undermanagers ticket. One I went to work under in 79 in Australia shortly after I'd left the UK. He had the 2nd class ticket and was studying for his Managers ticket in NSW. His problem was the surveying part he was having difficulty with. Don't know if he passed as I have lost contact with him over the years.

[erichall]

Nov 6, 2008 15:13:57 GMT -5 brierley said:

Just to clarify your hierarchy list, there are only 3 statutory appointments in a British mine, viz. 1.the Deputy, who qualifies with a New style Deputies Certificate. 2.The Unit surveyor. 3. The Colliery Manager who must possess a 1st. Class Cert. of Competency granted by H.S.E. Most senior managerial positions were created under a "jobs for the boys" process and introduced in the late '50's

Unless specified by HMI ( because of the limited number of men employed) there must be appointed by the owner at least one Undermanager whose minimum qualification is the Second Class Certificate of Competency, those it was usual for the U/M to have a First Class CoC in order to take charge in the absence of the Manager.

[John]

For a number of years before I left the UK Eric, I worked in misc mines, which came under the miscellaneous mines acts.
Under those acts we didn't have formal mining qualifications other than the Manager, who still had to have a Class 1 certificate if there were more than so many men underground.

Last mine I worked at in the UK was Boulby, a potash mine 51% owned by ICI and 49% by Anglo American, a South African Company wholly owned by De Beers.
They had a different outlook, the Manager had to have a Bsc in mining, as did the Elec and Mech Engineer in Charge. (Company policy)
I'd estimate we had more highly qualified, technically, mining supervisors/Elec Engineers/Mech Engineers/Geologists/Surveyors etc than any NCB coal mines I'd ever worked at.
Although not required by the Act, all shift supervisors had Class2 tickets, some of the district supervisors had Class3 tickets.
On our staff, electrical, we had several with engineers tickets, a couple of members of the Institute of Mining Electrical Engineers!!! And you don't get into that organization by joining!!!

It was a privilege working with those fellers, most were first class mining electricians.

[erichall]

Can only speak for the NCB and Coal mines, John. This piece has made me re-read some of The Law relating to Safety and Health - Mines of coal or stratified Ironstone, and Quarries.- commonly referred to as the

Mines and Quarries Act 1954 .

Reading my certificates it says

SECOND ( OR FIRST) CLASS CERTIFICATE OF COMPETENCY
(MINES OFCOAL, STRATIFIED IRONSTONE,SHALE OR FIRECLAY)

THE MINISTER OF POWER, on the recommendation of the Mining Qualifications Board and in pursuance of the powers conferred upon him by subsection (1) of section one hundred and forty-seven of the Mines and Quarries Act, 1954, hereby grants to

............... ...............name......................................................................................
of ....................................address.........................................................................

this Second-Class certificate of Competency valid with respect to mines of coal, stratified ironstone, shale or fireclay

Dated this day of , ninteen hundred and


MINISTRY OF POWER
LONDON SW1 An Under Secretary to the
Ministry of Power


............................................................................................................................

In the NCB, in order to obtain the certificates, you had to have :
Second Class - A Higher National Certificate in Mining - awarded by the Institution of Mining Engineers in conjunction with the Ministry of Education.
( the Undermanager's Ticket )

First Class - A National Diploma in Mining - awarded by the Institution of Mining Engineers in conjunction with the Ministry of Education

The National Diploma was considered equivalent to a BSc Degree, and in order to obtain both certificates you had to pass, in addition, an exam in Mining Legislation.

I agree that, whilst these were the MINIMUM qualifications, it was usually a progression from Second to First. Whilst officially, you only had to have a second class to be appointed Undermanager, and with this qualification you could act as temporary replacemnt for the Manager, I never knew of anyone being appointed even Undermanager without a first class ticket, and as you say, the degrees ,diplomas etc were issued by the Institute Of Mining Engineers.
In fact, my first job as an underofficial, a Grade 2 Deputy, (a shotfirer who could take over a district as Deputy, was obtained not by obtaining the Deputy's/ Shotfirer's Ticket, but on obtaining my Second Class Certificate.
Like most of the officials, engineers etc. we had the qualifications to do the job higher than our own. An amazing number of Colliery Staff - Mining, Mechanical and Electrical - had high qualifications, and certainly not obtained 'from the rag-man in place of a goldfish.
My Certificates, and I was nothing out of the ordinary, involved studying:
Higher National - Mathematics, Mining Technology, Mechanical & Electrical Engineering, and Surveying.
National Diploma - Mining Technology, Mechanical & Electrical Engineering, and Surveying.
Up to Higher National level was done on day Release, which meant that you were getting practical experience as well.
National Diploma was a full year of study.
None of these was 'given away' but hard earned, as were the qualifications of the Elecs and Mechs. Anyone who had risen through the full NCB Apprenticeship had these, along with much practical work. In fact for the 'Tickets' you had to have a fixed minimum of face experience.

[John]

Considering the statutory obligations and responsibilities Eric, I often wondered why anyone would want to be a Colliery Manager .
Those men had area on their backs, HMI at times, plus manpower at other times, not even mentioning nature playing her dirty little tricks each day with "white walls" roof creep, and all the other things that "she" could throw at us.
It was a job that was 24 hours a day on call. If a fire broke out in the early hours, the Manager had to get to the pit, if a major accident..etc etc.
Not a job I'd relish!! Leading hand electrician for a few years was enough for me!!
Paperwork used to pee me off, there was enough as an electrician, double that when I was in charge of a shift, then even more when one of my lads got burnt underground!
And every statutory form had to be countersigned or initialed by the Manager. Way too much for one man to handle at a very large colliery.

[erichall]

Certainly a very responsible and arduous job, even at a small pi. Every action had to be weighed against the M&Q Act, almost every section of which starts off ' The Manager shall........' In other words . to quote Pres.Truman (I Think) 'The Buck stops Here'. He was, however, not alone in his responsibilities. Many of these were 'handed down' For instance, he would have had appointed :
a) A Surveyor, whose legal responsibility covered the keeping of accurate plans and such.
b) An Undermanager, whose legal responsibility was for a specific area of the pit, which incidentally, if it had a shaft, included the immediate surface environs.
c) Deputies, which he appointed, with responsibilities included the inspection and safe working of his district.
d) an Electrical Engineer, whose responsibility included all the electrical workings of the mine
e) a Mechanical engineer for the like mechanical workings.

Whilst the 'heirarchy' grew in later years, systems were in place to assist him in his more mundane tasks. For instance, whilst he was required to 'read and countersign all reports-which included Deputies Insections, Electrical and Mechanical Reports, Ventilation and Dust Control reports, and countless other 'smaller' reports, it was usual for a Manager to appoint someone to read the reports, and countersign on his behalf, including every Deputy's report (Pre- Shift and General) and prepare a precis for him ready for his perusal on his arrival at the mine.
Any occurrence underground was automatically reported to the Undermanager by phone, and he was most often the person who either 'galloped to the mine' or said the dreaded words 'Put the emergency plan into operation!' It was at this stage when the Manager became involved. In the case of dangerous occurrences underground it was the Undermanager, or in later years this responsibility would fall on the Safety Engineer, who had to visit the site and report it to the Manager, the Workmen's Inspectors, and the HMI., ensure the site was undisturbed except for securing the safety of the mine or the personnel until it was visited by the Manager and HMI. Plans of the site would have to be drawn up and reports filled out, which later may be used in evidence in the light of any inquiry.
The Undermanager would be the first to deal with any manpower problems or disputes, and would in many cases be responsible for the authorisation of wages paid to any local contracts. He was the one responsible for the day to day running of the mine, and answered daily to the Manager.
One of the main responsibilities of the Manager would be the accounting to Area for any failures to meet targets ( a good Manager always had a liitle something 'up his sleeve' and never reported all the facts to area. Daily output would be the most mportant to them, and the Manager would, on a good day, report something less than the full output, since the next day, when the target was not met, he could 'add a bit on' thus levelling out any peaks and troughs. The peaks he would receive a plaudit, the troughs a b******ing. Any Manager worth his salt would try to even out his output to prevent this.
Whilst only ever sitting in the manager's chair a few times, and sitting in the Undermanager's chair for quite some time, thereafter being moved after a fatality in another part of the mine, into the post of Safety Engineer and incidentally spending a lot of time reading, countersigning thousands of reports and books and reporting to the manager, and attending numerous after hours D,Occurrences, I always likened the colliery set up to an egg-timer. You had a lot of people above you (higher management inc Area) and a lot of people below you (underofficals, workmen etc.) so the Undermanager was the pinch in the middle, and it didn't matter which way the timer was, the sand fell on you. You kopped it from all sides
There are often many takes on the various jobs. I once annoyed an Area Safety Engineer who once asked me 'What do you consider is a SE 's job?' 'Simple,' was my reply ' He's the rear-gunner for the manager.' He's there to see that nobody can hit the Manager with non-compliance with the act.

[John]

A very informative post Eric..

[erichall]

Glad you think so, John. I'll post a copy of my Training Schedule as a Student Mining Apprentice so time.
Despite what many people thought, the NCB had some splendid training schemes, covering things from coal face training to comptometer operating.
That was the only machine that defeated me. The lasses in Wages could use them with the skill the Chinese used to use for Counting frames, and long before the advent of computers.

[Sam from Kent]

Wasn't there a statutory appointment of Electricians and Mechanics in the absence of the unit engineer requiring at least a Class 1 certificate if there were more than 75 prime movers at the mine?

[John]

Jan 1, 2011 14:20:00 GMT -5 Sam from Kent said:

Wasn't there a statutory appointment of Electricians and Mechanics in the absence of the unit engineer requiring at least a Class 1 certificate if there were more than 75 prime movers at the mine?

There probably was/is, most of the fellers I worked under were "green ticket" holders during the 60's, I recall a couple were at nightschool as well as day release to gain an engineers ticket on my staff, electrical.
I went on regular nights as my timekeeping wasn't the best on rotating shifts. I had a hard time rolling out of bed for dayshift.
The feller in charge of the shift was a "green ticket" holder appointed as a Chargehand, the engineer wanted him on staff, but he refused as going staff would deprive him of overtime payments. I think he was class one electrical/class2 mechanical certified. We were still on the old Mech/Elec Scheme. I'll probe that last one a bit deeper as I'm still in contact with an old mate who worked with Ken, the above feller, he also spent ten years at my first pit.