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Post by John on Sept 28, 2007 12:34:29 GMT -5
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Post by dazbt on Sept 29, 2007 11:00:45 GMT -5
The Chinese Mining/Engineering industry has been more than aware of quality control at least since the early 1970's, it has never been a problem to them ............. China's problem was, and I strongly suspect, still is, in being able to achieve a standard of materials and manufacturing quality that are compatable with their ability to measure it. |
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Post by John on Sept 29, 2007 11:48:59 GMT -5
The Chinese Mining/Engineering industry has been more than aware of quality control at least since the early 1970's, it has never been a problem to them ............. China's problem was, and I strongly suspect, still is, in being able to achieve a standard of materials and manufacturing quality that are compatable with their ability to measure it. That gave me a chuckle Daz.. ;D ;D I see they have their foot in the door in Australian Collieries though, with several faces of their equipment operating. Probably only cost a couple of million bucks for the whole setup... ;D ;D AND if it's anything like other Chinese products, would take a team of tradesmen to keep it running. ;D Hope the paint jobs lead free! |
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limey
Shotfirer.
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Post by limey on Oct 1, 2007 12:10:21 GMT -5
Pretty interesting! Back in the late 70's we had a group of Chinese mining representatives visit us at BPB Instruments - they were touring Eurpoean mining companies looking to buy equipment. I was tasked with demonstrating our well logging equipment to them.
All the time, they were very insistant that their technology was on a par with ours - but when I started up the electric winch that pulled the tool out of the borehole, they wanted to know how it worked without having somebody cranking a handle!
They wanted to buy our equipment, but our boss would not sell equipment, they had to buy the service. This they eventually agreed to, but when they refused to guarantee the living conditions for our engineers, the deal fell through!
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Post by John on Oct 1, 2007 17:42:45 GMT -5
That reminds me of what one of the miners was saying at Angus Place, some Mitsui Miiki blokes came to look at the Anderson Strathclyde shearer/Gullick set up we had, and one of them said "not bad, but not as good as the Miiki shearer".
He said to them, if it's that good how come we have this pommie shearer then?? The Japanese bloke didn't know what to say. ;D ;D
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limey
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Post by limey on Oct 2, 2007 8:46:36 GMT -5
Funniest thing about the Chinese visit was when one of them asked who we bought the cable from (through an interpreter). I answered "British Rope". This was then interpreted to Chinese and much discussion commenced amoung them interspersed with "Blitish Lope"!
Even after I left BPB, the cable manufacturer was still referred to as "Blitish Lope"!
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Post by newton on Sept 4, 2008 18:37:58 GMT -5
I believe they have, we have made 6 visits to the manufacturing plants in China in the last two years and the change in that time is huge. They were losing work to the big two suppliers and it finally clicked. The number of ex-pates teaching them the ropes at any one time is like a small army..
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Post by John on Sept 4, 2008 19:18:13 GMT -5
Hi and welcome to the forum.
There's one thing, they have to prove their equipment works without too many costly breakdowns. I hope it's better than their domestic electronics! 50% return rate won't wash in high production longwalls ;D
I wasn't too happy after the electronics engineer for Anderson Strathclyde was adamant the power supplies in the AM500 shearer would last forever. I was the one who had to change one of them on nightshifts! I had bits of the control chamber spread around me on the floor and cursing the so and so as I was reaching with my short arms into the back of the chamber! If he'd been with me that night I'd be putting him down as he did me at the training course a few months earlier.
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Post by John on Sept 4, 2008 19:22:00 GMT -5
That was at Angus Place btw, I presume your in Australia, Newton??
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Post by newton on Sept 4, 2008 19:44:43 GMT -5
Yes in Australia with Ellton Longwall. We propose and have offered the Marco German electro-hydraulics, any of the gear that comes into Australia will be overseen by Australians for Australia. The Chinese are very open to manufacturing to customers spec including the use of others electronics, controllers, motors etc. We can even build in customers existing motors, most mines have good spares stock..
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Post by John on Sept 4, 2008 21:04:52 GMT -5
I'll bet Daz will be grilling you, he used to work for Anderson Strathclyde and worked around the world commissioning their shearers.
There's another Ex Anderson employee whose a member, but he spends his retirement travelling.
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Post by dazbt on Sept 5, 2008 13:56:47 GMT -5
I'll bet Daz will be grilling you, he used to work for Anderson Strathclyde and worked around the world commissioning their shearers. There's another Ex Anderson employee whose a member, but he spends his retirement travelling. Welcome on board Newton, I hope that you enjoy being amongst us, you have already got my full attention and I look forward reading your future posts on topics that bring us up to date on what's happening in the coal mining world, I suspect that apart from one or two such as yourself and Coalfire we have a wealth of nostalgia (old facts and plenty of fiction) but not a great deal of uptodate "what's going on now knowledge". 'Grilling'sounds a bit heavy John, I left the Bobbies in 1975 and although I kept my KGB, CIA and MI5 affiliation going for some time after I am now in full retirement, but I certainly would be interested in hearing about Chinese made shearers, especially the 'off the peg ones'. I have to admit that I admire the concept of a manufacturer's willingness to adapt or incorporate a customer specified component such as electric motors, electrical control equipment, hydraulic systems etc. ... but I can also imagine some of the many nightmare situations it could create. I believe that China ‘purchased’ technology transfer deals with some Longwall equipment manufacturers at least as far back as the 1970s and certainly in the 1980s had agreements with Anderson Strathclyde and Dowty to manufacture specified shearers and roof supports of those manufacturer’s design and spec., with what I believe were specific conditions as to some of the ’more intricate’ internals being supplied only from the OEM. As I ‘stepped out’ of the industry I knew that the Chinese had failed in their first tender to an Australian coal mine to supply a Chinese produced AM500 Longwall Installation, I would love to know what happened after that, what number of Chinese made shearers have been sold overseas, what type they are, where they are etc. I’ve just read this back to myself and it may seem a bit condescending towards Chinese manufacturers but if there was anything in my life that I was convinced of, it is the fact that wherever there is room for improvement the Chinese are the ones that are capable of identifying it and taking the steps towards improving it, so, going back to the original statement that I admire the Chinese willingness to incorporate the customer’s requirements I believe that they have the right customer approach and engineering attitude, but I am unsure as whether they have the world wide experience or material capabilities of achieving them………. yet! |
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Post by John on Sept 5, 2008 16:07:45 GMT -5
Just as we are about to get to learn a bit about Chinese shearers, look whats happened!
JOY Global’s Chinese arm has bought Chinese equipment manufacturer Wuxi Shengda for $US22 million.
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Post by shropshirebloke on Sept 5, 2008 17:02:20 GMT -5
if there was anything in my life that I was convinced of, it is the fact that wherever there is room for improvement the Chinese are the ones that are capable of identifying it and taking the steps towards improving it Assuming that your definition of "improvement" is "increase" can I agree with you on deaths per ton of output? Nowt personal Daz, but they don't seem to give a **** about human life. |
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Post by coalfire on Sept 5, 2008 18:29:07 GMT -5
I'm glad to see Joy buy them up. That's all we need a Chinese Longwall. I'm sure if you turn the Shear upside down it would read "Made By Mattel"  |
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Post by dazbt on Sept 6, 2008 3:45:27 GMT -5
if there was anything in my life that I was convinced of, it is the fact that wherever there is room for improvement the Chinese are the ones that are capable of identifying it and taking the steps towards improving it Assuming that your definition of "improvement" is "increase" can I agree with you on deaths per ton of output? Nowt personal Daz, but they don't seem to give a **** about human life. The critical word is ‘capable’, whilst I believe that they are able to identify problems and how they should go about rectifying or improving them, what I do have doubts about is whether they can, mainly on the basis of quality materials or facility shortages. The statement was meant purely within an engineering context, although at a guess the same application of the words ‘capable of identifying’ could possibly apply to the more political aspects of China’s coal mining industry control. Improvement doesn’t always mean increase of course and in this instance I was trying to make the point that Chinese mining engineers are well capable of identifying engineering shortcomings and are pretty well aware of what should be done to rectify or ‘improve’ their engineering problems. I suspect that if you have read some of my previous posts you won’t be in any doubt about my feelings towards the carnage that is ongoing in Chinese coal mines. I worked briefly in quite a few of the Datong area coal mines in the early 1980s and although the mines that I worked in were the ’better managed’ ones it was nonetheless a great eye opener. I visited a few of the mining machinery establishments and saw first hand the results of some of their manufacturing, including AB16 machine components that were being made under license as well as some that I shouldn’t have seen that had been ‘copied out-with of license’, I had the opportunity to see a few examples of their own designed machinery that had been returned for repair. I therefore have to admit that my opinions could quite well be biased and outdated, but I do have a few ex-workmate friends still living and working alongside China’s coal mining industry. |
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Post by shropshirebloke on Sept 7, 2008 6:03:59 GMT -5
Assuming that your definition of "improvement" is "increase" can I agree with you on deaths per ton of output? Nowt personal Daz, but they don't seem to give a **** about human life. The critical word is ‘capable’, whilst I believe that they are able to identify problems and how they should go about rectifying or improving them, what I do have doubts about is whether they can, mainly on the basis of quality materials or facility shortages. The statement was meant purely within an engineering context, although at a guess the same application of the words ‘capable of identifying’ could possibly apply to the more political aspects of China’s coal mining industry control. Improvement doesn’t always mean increase of course and in this instance I was trying to make the point that Chinese mining engineers are well capable of identifying engineering shortcomings and are pretty well aware of what should be done to rectify or ‘improve’ their engineering problems. I suspect that if you have read some of my previous posts you won’t be in any doubt about my feelings towards the carnage that is ongoing in Chinese coal mines. I worked briefly in quite a few of the Datong area coal mines in the early 1980s and although the mines that I worked in were the ’better managed’ ones it was nonetheless a great eye opener. I visited a few of the mining machinery establishments and saw first hand the results of some of their manufacturing, including AB16 machine components that were being made under license as well as some that I shouldn’t have seen that had been ‘copied out-with of license’, I had the opportunity to see a few examples of their own designed machinery that had been returned for repair. I therefore have to admit that my opinions could quite well be biased and outdated, but I do have a few ex-workmate friends still living and working alongside China’s coal mining industry. Sorry about that one Daz - reading my comment again I realise that the use of the phrase "nowt personal" makes it sound like I mean the opposite, which wasn't intended. I've read your posts about Chinese pits and see exactly what you mean. |
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Post by newton on Sept 8, 2008 23:17:35 GMT -5
Just as we are about to get to learn a bit about Chinese shearers, look whats happened! JOY Global’s Chinese arm has bought Chinese equipment manufacturer Wuxi Shengda for $US22 million. I was told yesterday that Joy are only using the company to service their existing shearers in China and that there is no technology transfer  Maybe they are trying to stop technology transfer by having a company they own do the service work and spare parts business |
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Post by newton on Sept 8, 2008 23:25:45 GMT -5
I'll bet Daz will be grilling you, he used to work for Anderson Strathclyde and worked around the world commissioning their shearers. There's another Ex Anderson employee whose a member, but he spends his retirement travelling. Welcome on board Newton, I hope that you enjoy being amongst us, you have already got my full attention and I look forward reading your future posts on topics that bring us up to date on what's happening in the coal mining world, I suspect that apart from one or two such as yourself and Coalfire we have a wealth of nostalgia (old facts and plenty of fiction) but not a great deal of uptodate "what's going on now knowledge". 'Grilling'sounds a bit heavy John, I left the Bobbies in 1975 and although I kept my KGB, CIA and MI5 affiliation going for some time after I am now in full retirement, but I certainly would be interested in hearing about Chinese made shearers, especially the 'off the peg ones'. I have to admit that I admire the concept of a manufacturer's willingness to adapt or incorporate a customer specified component such as electric motors, electrical control equipment, hydraulic systems etc. ... but I can also imagine some of the many nightmare situations it could create. I believe that China ‘purchased’ technology transfer deals with some Longwall equipment manufacturers at least as far back as the 1970s and certainly in the 1980s had agreements with Anderson Strathclyde and Dowty to manufacture specified shearers and roof supports of those manufacturer’s design and spec., with what I believe were specific conditions as to some of the ’more intricate’ internals being supplied only from the OEM. As I ‘stepped out’ of the industry I knew that the Chinese had failed in their first tender to an Australian coal mine to supply a Chinese produced AM500 Longwall Installation, I would love to know what happened after that, what number of Chinese made shearers have been sold overseas, what type they are, where they are etc. I’ve just read this back to myself and it may seem a bit condescending towards Chinese manufacturers but if there was anything in my life that I was convinced of, it is the fact that wherever there is room for improvement the Chinese are the ones that are capable of identifying it and taking the steps towards improving it, so, going back to the original statement that I admire the Chinese willingness to incorporate the customer’s requirements I believe that they have the right customer approach and engineering attitude, but I am unsure as whether they have the world wide experience or material capabilities of achieving them………. yet! Thanks for the welcome China National Coal Mining Equipment group brought Xi an Mining Machinery who had a long tech transfer with Eickhoff so their shearers are very Eickhoffise 350 to 2210Kw 1.0 to 6.1 cutting range, not good on automation.. |
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Post by newton on Sept 8, 2008 23:33:41 GMT -5
Last Chinese shearer that I know of was a 2006 made 930Kw 3300V 1.8 to 3.76mtr cutting range 2000mm drum diameter which went to Aolirelasji Mine in Russia, I am told that it is working very well..
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Post by newton on Sept 8, 2008 23:46:44 GMT -5
My only trip underground in China so far
FROM bathhouses with attendants to transponders mapping underground workers and their profiles, two Aussies were in for an eye opening experience when they visited China Coal Ping Shuo Coal mine in China's Shanxi province.
After a five hour drive from Beijing on a highway that any Australian would be proud to own, we were greeted very warmly by coal mine officials upon arriving at the Ping Shuo Coal Mine. We got changed in a bathhouse which featured lounges and attendants - a far cry from what we are used to back home.
The rubber boots where not steel capped which made me feel not as sure footed as in Australia, however, the cap lamp was a LED polymer battery model, which gave excellent light in both narrow and broad beam. It only weighed 0.31Kg (0.68 of a pound) with 20 hours battery life.
Our helmets had a transponder fixed inside, as did all their employees. One screen in the control room pinpointed all employees underground as red dots on a mine plan. A double click on a red dot gave more specific information about the employee. I think a great system that should be mandatory in underground mines in all parts of the world.
We went underground in a Mitsui D280 Diesel Dual Cab Man Carrier we believe to be modified in Australia with spark arresters and air start.
The decline and roadway to the working face was fully concreted and lit all the way to the face. Access was by the tailgate.
The longwall was a China National Coal Mining Equipment (CME) top caving face, 240 metres wide and with a 2km panel length.
The operation is a 365 days, 24/7 operation.
The mine, which features two top coal caving faces and which has been operating since January 2005, has planned utilisation to keep the output conveyor belt full. The output conveyor was the mines bottleneck capable of only 3000t/h.
It averages 40,000 tonnes per day, with output of 14 million ROM tones per year.
Three to four hours per day is dedicated to maintenance, utilizing the second longwall during maintenance to keep the output conveyor full.
The roof was held up with 3 bolts per metre with the addition of cable bolts at the intersections. The ribs used 2 bolts per metre and were fully meshed. No stone dust appeared to be used.
They had four development panels using small roadheaders.
In all Ping Shuo Coal Mine was very well organized, well equipped safety conscious operation with all the same pressures and goals of an Australian pit. They were proud to show us their operation which was not at all like the picture our mind paints from the bad press some of small illegal mines have produced.
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Post by newton on Sept 8, 2008 23:52:15 GMT -5
If any one is going to the minexpo 2008 at Las Vegas look me up I will be on the China National Coal mining stand 2964
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Post by John on Sept 9, 2008 9:13:22 GMT -5
My only trip underground in China so far FROM bathhouses with attendants to transponders mapping underground workers and their profiles, two Aussies were in for an eye opening experience when they visited China Coal Ping Shuo Coal mine in China's Shanxi province. After a five hour drive from Beijing on a highway that any Australian would be proud to own, we were greeted very warmly by coal mine officials upon arriving at the Ping Shuo Coal Mine. We got changed in a bathhouse which featured lounges and attendants - a far cry from what we are used to back home. The rubber boots where not steel capped which made me feel not as sure footed as in Australia, however, the cap lamp was a LED polymer battery model, which gave excellent light in both narrow and broad beam. It only weighed 0.31Kg (0.68 of a pound) with 20 hours battery life. Our helmets had a transponder fixed inside, as did all their employees. One screen in the control room pinpointed all employees underground as red dots on a mine plan. A double click on a red dot gave more specific information about the employee. I think a great system that should be mandatory in underground mines in all parts of the world. We went underground in a Mitsui D280 Diesel Dual Cab Man Carrier we believe to be modified in Australia with spark arresters and air start. The decline and roadway to the working face was fully concreted and lit all the way to the face. Access was by the tailgate. The longwall was a China National Coal Mining Equipment (CME) top caving face, 240 metres wide and with a 2km panel length. The operation is a 365 days, 24/7 operation. The mine, which features two top coal caving faces and which has been operating since January 2005, has planned utilisation to keep the output conveyor belt full. The output conveyor was the mines bottleneck capable of only 3000t/h. It averages 40,000 tonnes per day, with output of 14 million ROM tones per year. Three to four hours per day is dedicated to maintenance, utilizing the second longwall during maintenance to keep the output conveyor full. The roof was held up with 3 bolts per metre with the addition of cable bolts at the intersections. The ribs used 2 bolts per metre and were fully meshed. No stone dust appeared to be used. They had four development panels using small roadheaders. In all Ping Shuo Coal Mine was very well organized, well equipped safety conscious operation with all the same pressures and goals of an Australian pit. They were proud to show us their operation which was not at all like the picture our mind paints from the bad press some of small illegal mines have produced. If they don't use stone dust, how on earth do they intend stopping the propagation of a coal dust explosion should methane get ignited? Seems a little odd, investing in the finest safety technology and omitting a basic true and tried method of stopping coal dust explosions and stopping a methane explosion from travelling around the pit. I recall at Wongawilli Colliery near Wollongong, conditions were damp to wet, so stonedust couldn't be used in barriers, so water barriers were used. Stone dust was still liberally used in inbye and outbye roads and workings though to comply with NSW coal mine rules. |
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Post by dazbt on Sept 9, 2008 13:43:01 GMT -5
If any one is going to the minexpo 2008 at Las Vegas look me up I will be on the China National Coal mining stand 2964 I won't be there but I wish I was, more for the Minexpo than the bright lights, naked ladies, drinking, dancing and 'bingo' though, how life changes a bloke. Thirty years ago I worked at a mine in New Mexico from which you could see the distant glow of Las Vegas, but never managed to get any spare time away from the shearer to visit, and these days I'd rather have a shearer in bits. Here's hoping that the show is a success for both you and your company Newton, don't forget those extra snapshots for display on here and keep us updated as to what's new and looks promising. As a further 'prompt', I personally would be interested in anything that Famur might be showing as new, particularly relating to thin seam Longwalls. |
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Post by newton on Sept 9, 2008 20:48:47 GMT -5
dazbt I will visit the Famur stand if they have one, what are your thoughts on the Polish quality? I leave tomorrow back next month...
Have a good photo of a CME Mini Wall shearer you might like but don't know how to post it.
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Post by dazbt on Sept 10, 2008 4:47:19 GMT -5
dazbt I will visit the Famur stand if they have one, what are your thoughts on the Polish quality? I leave tomorrow back next month... Have a good photo of a CME Mini Wall shearer you might like but don't know how to post it. Important things first then, to transfer photographs onto here or anywhere else for that matter I personally use Photobucket, it's free and it must be easy to use based on the simple fact that even I can make it work. You have to register with the site but it costs nothing, there are no strings attached or commitments; photobucket.com/I believe that there a few different ways to post pics onto here and John will no doubt explain better than I could, but Photobucket is an easy one. Re. Famur, they are registered for a stand at Las Vegas (I Googled) and thanks for the offer. I've no idea what Famur are actually producing these days but unless things have altered much over the last couple of decades I believe that some of Poland's best quality reserves were in the thinner seam sections. Unlike many other countries the Poles seemed intent on finding mechanisation to extract 1 metre (or less) coal and I wondered if in fact they were still chasing the same coal. I visited a few pits mainly working Anderson 420 Buttock Shearers at 1metre or less (0.88 being the least I think) and although I never actually saw any Polish manufactured shearers working what I do remember is seeing Polish machine units being transported underground on almost every trip. I also recall being told about their own machinery performance and reliability, shearer motors seemed to be 'the bane', apparently faces were frequently stood for days owing to shearer motor failure and awaiting replacement or repair (When I read your earlier post relating to your associate company being prepared to ‘customise’ I thought about Poland, although their requirement was a reversed scenario where a reliable motor would perhaps be the toe in the door). Although I can’t recall any detail I believe that there was a move towards some sort of collaboration between the then Anderson Strathclyde and a Polish conglomerate to manufacture coal cutting equipment in Poland. It would be interesting to find out if anything came of that, or perhaps the even more potentially feasable marriage of a Polish manufacturer with Eikhoff. |
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Post by John on Sept 10, 2008 6:31:14 GMT -5
I'm going to look for a piece of software, may take an hour or two, then I'll start a help board. The software aids me to copy parts of the pages here, which will help explanations.
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Post by dazbt on Sept 10, 2008 14:54:48 GMT -5
“Sorry about that one Daz - reading my comment again I realise that the use of the phrase "nowt personal" makes it sound like I mean the opposite, which wasn't intended. I've read your posts about Chinese pits and see exactly what you mean.”
No problem Shropshirebloke, it did make me sit up a bit straighter when I first read it but on reading it again I realised that we were on the same wavelength anyway. (just triggered a memory of when I was a mad headed youth just about finding my feet in the pit, I ended up filling off in a stable hole with an old collier who although he must have been over 60 years old he had muscles in his spit and never stopped grafting for a minute, he was the most placid quietly spoken bloke I have ever worked with. In the idiotic arrogant confidence of youth I started pushing my luck in the way I spoke to him mainly ‘jiving’ him about his age, one day I went a bit too far in my name calling and realised that I had. At the end of the shift when we crawled off the face into the gate I apologised to him and said I was sorry if I’d offended him, he just put a hand on my shoulder and his face close up to mine and said;
“Lad, tha’d know if ivver tha'd offended mi, cos I’d be standin here in a puddle of blood .................. thine”
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Maybe they are trying to stop technology transfer by having a company they own do the service work and spare parts business