Fear of insets.

[colly0410]

I have a fear of insets. When I started training at Moorgreen TC we used the old piper seam workings as our training area, & we got off the cage at an inset about 3/4 of the way down the shaft. I always glanced over the side of the platform down to the low main pit bottom & scared myself to death. One day we got on the cage to come up the pit & went down instead to the low main pit bottom, the onsetter said "everyone off" & the cage went up empty, we got on the other cage when it came down & came to the surface, never did
find out why that happened.

Hucknall also had an inset about 1/2 way down at the main bright seam, you got out the side of the cage for that. I was only 15 back then & was only allowed underground for training & visits. I worked in the cable shop till I was 16 & went on 2 underground visits, both to the main bright seam, of course I had to look over the side & the deep soft pit bottom looked like a ten pence piece, GULP. When I'd turned 16 I started properly working underground but always in the deep soft or black shale seams, we always got of at the deep soft pit bottom right at the bottom of the shaft so I felt safe.To get to the black shale seam you went down a drift.

Did many other pits have insets?

[John]

Never worked at a pit with insets, but would guess there were dozens around.
I was always nervous at Boulby if I had to change a proximity switch at tipping level in the No1 shaft tower. It could only be done from the top of the skip, that big hole always made me nervous!! I'd empty anything from my pockets that could fall out, tie string to the tools I needed to do the job, wear full safety harness, reach over the safety rail and wrap the lanyard around the winding rope, test it to make sure it was clipped on, then gingerly climb over the safety rails onto the top of the skip...... Oh, before any of this, I'd shout to the Banksman to lock the shaft, then wait for the 6 +6 +6 +6 +6 +6 signal, which I could clearly hear up in the tower, and he shouting after the phone had rung from the engineman..SHAFT LOCKED!!!

Deep holes and long drops make me very nervous...

Memories getting rusty in my old age, lock the shaft was a 6 + 6 +6 to lock, then four 6's to unlock. Locking a shaft was technically the winding engineman turning and removing the key from the control console and entering the locked shaft, time and reason for a shaft locking in a special log book.

[colly0410]

The first time I was down Hucknall pit, we were waiting in the main bright seam pit bottom for Manriding to start, the onsetter let me stand close to the safety gate so I could see the cage go past as they were still winding materials to & from deep soft. I heard the cage coming then "WHOOSH" it was there then gone with a blast of air, I nearly jumped out of my skin, all the other Blokes were laughing there heads off. I was brave & nonchalant next time as I knew what was coming. ;D

[John]

They move pretty fast, don't they!!
I didn't have much to do with shaft work during my time with the NCB, mine was at Cleveland Potash's Boulby Mine in North Yorks, where I was central ore handling electrician on my shift. I had the two shafts, No 1 with automatic skipping gear in it and 20 Tonne capacity skips, plus the two main vent fans, and all the trunk conveyors, plus all the central area main subs and auxiliary subs to take care of.
The loading level was at minus 30 feet below pit bottom, so by the time a skip had reached that point it was at max speed. I once timed a "cycle" skip stop, loads then winds and discharges at the surface 2.5 minutes, not bad for a 1.2Km approx hoist with 20 tonnes of mineral!!

[colly0410]

Wow that Boulby winder doesn't half move, don't think Hucknall or Moorgreen was that fast.

Moorgreen winder always seemed to accelerate faster than the one at Hucknall, always thought it was better than a goose fair ride. My Wife Sue's line dance teachers Husband was an onsetter at Moorgreen & said they uesd to give a special signal to the winding Man when trainees were riding, not sure how true that is. ;D

[John]

It's a pretty big winder, aging now though, I worked there until 1979 and it had been in service since 1975. 7000HP DC motor, in fact when I worked at Boulby, the only other identical motors in the UK were NCB Selby Cable Belt hauling coal up the drift and the other was at the Wheal Jane tin mine in Cornwall. The NCB had one sitting spare.

[colly0410]

While on the subject of shafts. Every time I've been down a pit there's always been an onsetter in the pit bottom to ring stop to the winding Man, open the gates, & if it's an inset lower the loading ramp. How do you go on if there's no one there e.g. you're first or last down the pit after or before a holiday or something. How would you signal winder, open gates, lower loading ramp ect?

[John]

You don't ring the winding engineman to stop, he uses his dial indicator.
First onsetter down the pit enters with the Deputies to do the "Pre shift Inspections, when the cage stops, he raises the cage gate, and opens the shaft gate and climbs out, the engineman will not move the cages until he gets a signal from both Bank and Onset. Plus the gate interlock switches on an open gate will lock the winding engine brakes on

Remember, when the Banksman wants the cage moved he first sends a signal to Onset, winder doesn't hear that one, then when he gets a signal back, winder hears that one, the Banksman raps a signal to the winder, then the winder can act on that signal.
So, men are waiting to go underground, Banksman raps three to Onsetter, when he gets a three back, he raps three to the winder, winder switches to manriding and the manriding light appears at Bank and Onset, Banksman then allows the men on the cage.
He then raps two to the Onsetter, Onsetter raps one to Banksman, same heard by engineman, and then Banksman raps two to the winder. Winder then initiates the wind.

[John]

I often was called to bank to sort a tipping problem in the rock shaft, once I'd corrected the problem, I'd go up to the winding engine cabin and monitor everything for a while before riding back down the shaft. Gave my labourer a chance to get a couple of smokes in too... ;D
I used to relieve the No1 shaft Onsetter sometimes at end of shift manriding if he wanted to go early, I wasn't authorized, but usually the area shift supervisor would hang about, he was authorized.

[John]

I should add, when the Onsetter is "last man out" before a holiday begins or weekend shutdown, the Onsetter telephones the engineman to let him know he's last out, he will then wait for a few minutes after the Onsetter has rapped him two, gives the Onsetter time to close the shaft gate and drop the cage gates.

[colly0410]

Thanks for info John. I remember if you were on the upper deck of the cage at Moorgreen you had to wait for the bottom deck to unload, then cage gate closed and loading ramp up then shaft gates closed, then you'd inch down a few feet, the onsetter would ring a bell when level with inset landing & you'd stop dead, shaft gates open, loading ramp down then cage gates open & we'd all troop off. Often the cage would still be bouncing up & down while walking over the ramp. Reverse for coming up..

[dazbt]

I always believed that the initial signals for men ascending was rapped by the onsetter to both the winder and banksman and similarly when descending the banksman's first rap was to both the engine house and pit bottom. ie. men descending the intial 3 had been rapped to the engine by the banksman and the men were only allowed onto the cage when the onsetter had signalled 3 in reply, the onsetter rapped a further 1 and the on receipt of that the final signal 2 raps was made by the banksmen ....... and vice versa.
When men were riding rapping 1 from anywhere (Bank, bottom or inset)would stop the cage.
I have on a couple of occassions rapped myself out of a pit and had to use 'the last man' signal which if I remember at Woolley Colliery was 13, there was a couple of minutes delay, the cage lifted a few inches, stopped, another delay and then lifted a few more inches, repeated yet again before the cage was lifted to surface.
as time goes on it was hard to recall all that so I'm probably wrong in part if not all of it .........we have an ex-winder on here who will surely put things in the right context.

[Wheldale]

Oct 28, 2012 0:54:31 GMT -5 dazbt said:

I always believed that the initial signals for men ascending was rapped by the onsetter to both the winder and banksman and similarly when descending the banksman's first rap was to both the engine house and pit bottom. ie. men descending the intial 3 had been rapped to the engine by the banksman and the men were only allowed onto the cage when the onsetter had signalled 3 in reply, the onsetter rapped a further 1 and the on receipt of that the final signal 2 raps was made by the banksmen ....... and vice versa.
When men were riding rapping 1 from anywhere (Bank, bottom or inset)would stop the cage.
I have on a couple of occassions rapped myself out of a pit and had to use 'the last man' signal which if I remember at Woolley Colliery was 13, there was a couple of minutes delay, the cage lifted a few inches, stopped, another delay and then lifted a few more inches, repeated yet again before the cage was lifted to surface.
as time goes on it was hard to recall all that so I'm probably wrong in part if not all of it .........we have an ex-winder on here who will surely put things in the right context.

When I worked in South Africa the onsetter and banksman both signalled the winder. When the onsetter travelled with the cage (which was very often with the numerous levels in a shaft) the signal was 3,3,3 and then the winder would reply 3,3,3. The cage gates were not interlocked to the winding system. When ever the winder gave a signal it locked the brakes. When the banksman and onsetter signalled this unlocked the brakes. Each shaft station on the shaft had a set of red and green lights next to the signalling panel to give a indication of the brakes, green for locked, red dor unlocked.

I had to take and passed the onsetter exam. It was taken infront of a inspector of mines and two enginners. It was really easy to fail too. If they asked you a question about signalling say what is the signal for person giving signal travelling with cage and you replied three threes you would fail as three threes are nine! Correct answer was 3,3,3.

[Wheldale]

Oct 28, 2012 5:50:21 GMT -5 Wheldale said:

Oct 28, 2012 0:54:31 GMT -5 dazbt said:

I always believed that the initial signals for men ascending was rapped by the onsetter to both the winder and banksman and similarly when descending the banksman's first rap was to both the engine house and pit bottom. ie. men descending the intial 3 had been rapped to the engine by the banksman and the men were only allowed onto the cage when the onsetter had signalled 3 in reply, the onsetter rapped a further 1 and the on receipt of that the final signal 2 raps was made by the banksmen ....... and vice versa.
When men were riding rapping 1 from anywhere (Bank, bottom or inset)would stop the cage.
I have on a couple of occassions rapped myself out of a pit and had to use 'the last man' signal which if I remember at Woolley Colliery was 13, there was a couple of minutes delay, the cage lifted a few inches, stopped, another delay and then lifted a few more inches, repeated yet again before the cage was lifted to surface.
as time goes on it was hard to recall all that so I'm probably wrong in part if not all of it .........we have an ex-winder on here who will surely put things in the right context.

When I worked in South Africa the onsetter and banksman both signalled the winder. When the onsetter travelled with the cage (which was very often with the numerous levels in a shaft) the signal was 3,3,3 and then the winder would reply 3,3,3. The cage gates were not interlocked to the winding system. When ever the winder gave a signal it locked the brakes. When the banksman and onsetter signalled this unlocked the brakes. Each shaft station on the shaft had a set of red and green lights next to the signalling panel to give a indication of the brakes, green for locked, red dor unlocked.

I had to take and passed the onsetter exam. It was taken infront of a inspector of mines and two enginners. It was really easy to fail too. If they asked you a question about signalling say what is the signal for person giving signal travelling with cage and you replied three threes you would fail as three threes are nine! Correct answer was 3,3,3.

Forgot to say, in SA when the onsetter was travelling with the cage there was a 1 minute delay from the onsetter giving the signal to raise and lower and the cage moving.

[John]

I forgot about double decks, been over 30 years since I worked in a shaft mine.... I do recall it was illegal to "sump" the bottom deck when men were in it.

Gate interlocks were mandatory in the UK, they had to lock the brakes when open. There was usually a lighted sign similar to the "Men" manriding sign showing brakes, or brakes locked at onset. Showed the Onsetter that the gate interlocks were working correctly or gates not closed.
Not sure now, but something tells me we swapped the Snaplock gate interlocks at Boulby for magnetic proximity switches due to Snaplocks rusting up and failing to the "closed" position, rendering them useless as a safety device.

[colly0410]

Thanks for all the info Gents. I never took much notice of what signals the onsetters & banksmen gave, all I seem to remember is 1 ring for stop & 3 for Manriding, I wish I'd paid more attention. I presume there must have been a signal to tell the winder driver to stop at the inset (or is it shaft station, I do like that word, sounds dead posh to a Nottingham lad) or shaft bottom or which inset (shaft station) if there was more than one.

[John]

The basic shaft signals were:-
1 to raise, 2 to lower, 1 to stop while in motion, 3 manriding, 4 to raise steady, 5 to lower steady, then there were others like lock shaft in electric winding shafts, inset landing signals last man signals, but the basics were standard and laid down in the M&Q Act.

[Mick]

I remember been told about Harry Riley falling from the blocking bed inset to the Beeston bottom at Gomersal me dad and is mate were one of the first to find him.
Mick.

[Wheldale]

Oct 28, 2012 10:32:10 GMT -5 John said:

The basic shaft signals were:-
1 to raise, 2 to lower, 1 to stop while in motion, 3 manriding, 4 to raise steady, 5 to lower steady, then there were others like lock shaft in electric winding shafts, inset landing signals last man signals, but the basics were standard and laid down in the M&Q Act.

The ones in South Africa were similar. 1 to raise, 2 to lower, 3 men, 1 to stop. There were loads more for clutching, explosives, testing etc. I used to wonder why they were similar to the UK ones, maybe because it was in the past UK companies that started the mines over in SA or maybe the fact that alot of Cornish men came over to SA years ago to make their fortune?

[colly0410]

Mick, bad news about Harry, RIP to him. I feared the cage moving while I was on the loading ramp & falling to the pit bottom, but when John explained about the shaft gate interlocks locking the winder brakes on I now know this couldn't have happened..

[John]

Oct 28, 2012 16:49:03 GMT -5 colly0410 said:

Mick, bad news about Harry, RIP to him. I feared the cage moving while I was on the loading ramp & falling to the pit bottom, but when John explained about the shaft gate interlocks locking the winder brakes on I now know this couldn't have happened..

Gomersal probably had steam winders.

[Mick]

No Jon both shafts had electric winders,coal came out in tubs till a drift was taken down from the pit yard then everything went in and out the drift.
This may be of some interest if you google Life Dahn t' Pit its a little book about Gomersal Pit.

[colly0410]

Thanks for that website info Mick, I've put it in my favorites & I'll read it later on..

[John]

Oct 29, 2012 10:41:39 GMT -5 Mick said:

No Jon both shafts had electric winders,coal came out in tubs till a drift was taken down from the pit yard then everything went in and out the drift.
This may be of some interest if you google Life Dahn t' Pit its a little book about Gomersal Pit.

Just "mekkin" sure Mick

Here a live link to the book...www.kirklees.gov.uk/leisure/museums/oakwell/pdf/life-dahn-tpit.pdf

[rac]

Oct 28, 2012 0:54:31 GMT -5 dazbt said:

I always believed that the initial signals for men ascending was rapped by the onsetter to both the winder and banksman and similarly when descending the banksman's first rap was to both the engine house and pit bottom. ie. men descending the intial 3 had been rapped to the engine by the banksman and the men were only allowed onto the cage when the onsetter had signalled 3 in reply, the onsetter rapped a further 1 and the on receipt of that the final signal 2 raps was made by the banksmen ....... and vice versa.
When men were riding rapping 1 from anywhere (Bank, bottom or inset)would stop the cage.
I have on a couple of occassions rapped myself out of a pit and had to use 'the last man' signal which if I remember at Woolley Colliery was 13, there was a couple of minutes delay, the cage lifted a few inches, stopped, another delay and then lifted a few more inches, repeated yet again before the cage was lifted to surface.
as time goes on it was hard to recall all that so I'm probably wrong in part if not all of it .........we have an ex-winder on here who will surely put things in the right context.

all this talk of "rapping" was this a load of black faced miners coming out the pit talking to music? ha!

[cortonwood]

good read that,thanks.

Oct 29, 2012 11:44:21 GMT -5 John said:

Oct 29, 2012 10:41:39 GMT -5 Mick said:

No Jon both shafts had electric winders,coal came out in tubs till a drift was taken down from the pit yard then everything went in and out the drift.
This may be of some interest if you google Life Dahn t' Pit its a little book about Gomersal Pit.

Just "mekkin" sure Mick

Here a live link to the book...www.kirklees.gov.uk/leisure/museums/oakwell/pdf/life-dahn-tpit.pdf

[dazbt]

Oct 29, 2012 14:18:08 GMT -5 rac said:

Oct 28, 2012 0:54:31 GMT -5 dazbt said:

I always believed that the initial signals for men ascending was rapped by the onsetter to both the winder and banksman and similarly when descending the banksman's first rap was to both the engine house and pit bottom. ie. men descending the intial 3 had been rapped to the engine by the banksman and the men were only allowed onto the cage when the onsetter had signalled 3 in reply, the onsetter rapped a further 1 and the on receipt of that the final signal 2 raps was made by the banksmen ....... and vice versa.
When men were riding rapping 1 from anywhere (Bank, bottom or inset)would stop the cage.
I have on a couple of occassions rapped myself out of a pit and had to use 'the last man' signal which if I remember at Woolley Colliery was 13, there was a couple of minutes delay, the cage lifted a few inches, stopped, another delay and then lifted a few more inches, repeated yet again before the cage was lifted to surface.
as time goes on it was hard to recall all that so I'm probably wrong in part if not all of it .........we have an ex-winder on here who will surely put things in the right context.

all this talk of "rapping" was this a load of black faced miners coming out the pit talking to music? ha!

Pay attention rac, it's all here in the forum archives ;D ;D ;D

"RAP:- Now here’s a little story you all know well
About Banksman Bill, we think he’s swell
By simply RAPPING he rings a bell
Sending me and me marrows down into Hell,
Me and me marrows and others as well.
Time for a shift in a man made hole
Not for us to live on the dole
We’re men of conscience and of soul
Here everyday to dig this sodding coal.

This rap was specially composed by EMINEM for Pitwork
EMIENEM being EAST MIDLANDS INSTITUTION for NEUROTIC EX MINERS."



Read more: coalmine.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=amg&action=display&thread=555#ixzz2Aip3YUy4

[dazbt]

Especially for you rac;

[John]

Rappings certainly not what it used to be....

[rac]

Oct 30, 2012 6:25:22 GMT -5 dazbt said:

Especially for you rac;

not quite the rap i had in mind but very nice all the same.
thanks dazbt ;D ;D