"TILT ?"

[John]

Glad I never went underground to work over here, I'd have hightailed it to the surface real quickly had anyone lit up around me.....

I once asked the blokes I worked with at Clifton what they would do if they caught someone smoking underground. They all said "STRETCHER CASE"!!

Totally a different mentality we had in UK mining.

Odd though, I used to smoke back then and it never bothered me not being able to smoke, but jeeze, when I was on the cage heading for bank, I'd have killed for a ciggie, couldn't run across to the electric shop fast enough to get me ciggies and inhale that first "drag"....

[dazbt]

I reckon you are right about the general fundamental 'mentality, mindset and inbred aversion' towards any thoughts of smoking underground in the UK, although I'm not quite sure how the thinking went within the non flame safety mines and more particularly amongst the lads that had worked most of their lives in such mines and then found themselves ‘transferred’ to greater risk coal mines.
Over the years I’ve come across dozens of incidents of miners smoking underground, mainly cigarettes, one occasion a corn-cob pipe smoking chock fitter and even groups sharing marijuana joints, most actually on mechanised Longwall Faces and all of the incidents in known methane risk deep mines. On one occasion I witnessed an onsetter flick a cigarette into an upcast shaft as I turned the corner into the pit bottom and caught him by surprise.
I can't say what goes on these days regarding underground flame cutting and electric welding throughout the coalmines of the world and what restrictions and controls are now in place but I can relate to what was custom and practice in many of the mines in India, China, Poland and The USA some twenty years or so ago. Basically they were used when and where required, rusted nuts and bolts just weren’t seen as a major problem, bent underframes and shearer shoe posts could be rectified by bringing them to a red heat with the oxy-acetylene torch and then the machine driven onto wedges, broken bits here and there could be welded in minutes, in the UK some of these ten minute repairs would have been major downtime stoppages perhaps over periods of days. The point being that wherever the use of oxy-acetylene burning or electric arc welding was so easily accepted as being a safe alternative why wasn’t smoking as acceptable ……. agreed, the fact that some semblance of methane monitoring had to be conducted before and during flame cutting or welding was allowed in any particular area and the other precaution of having stone dust close by, but the logic of at least one US miner that I questioned in conversation was that he only ever smoked adjacent to a methane monitor, “tilt?”
In Poland I ‘monitored’ the arc welding repair of a an AM500 (John’s AM400) through shaft tube at the bottom of a power pack unit of a machine situated in the main gate corner of a Longwall Face, the job took hours to complete and on straightening up for the first time in all that time I was offered a lighted cigarette by the mech.fitter allocated to me, I went spare and he gently ‘asked’ in Polish how I could find smoking a cigarette so wrong when I had just spent hours with my nose literally up against an arc welder. ……… what’s the Polish for mentality?


“2000-2007 six underground fires or explosions were reported that were attributed to flame-cutting and welding operations and caused injuries or fatalities”

docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:wfIuywfxuskJ:www.cdc.gov/niosh/mining/pubs/pdfs/rtfho.pdf+us+coal+mine+underground+welding&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESj5Q9JG9ycB_3BMKrO6XoH0QfudlgAmhEx1eQtCUEX_fFyC8G6jfBrzqjbbl7vq6QvT7SAywbt51IG2_mWVoBHL4oW_nUNemHBIrVajfRV8F2wt0dGl-SL2ut9pj7LQuTJWWOkV&sig=AHIEtbTagJ5VX4-K5d3n_ozR50sRdgozTQ

“(d) Use of arc or flame in underground mines; fireproof enclosures;
operations outside fireproof enclosures; procedures; standards
All welding, cutting, or soldering with arc or flame in all
underground areas of a coal mine shall, whenever practicable, be
conducted in fireproof enclosures. Welding, cutting or soldering
with arc or flame in other than a fireproof enclosure shall be done
under the supervision of a qualified person who shall make a
diligent search for fire during and after such operations and
shall, immediately before and during such operations, continuously
test for methane with means approved by the Secretary for detecting
methane. Welding, cutting, or soldering shall not be conducted in
air that contains 1.0 volume per centum or more of methane. Rock
dust or suitable fire extinguishers shall be immediately available
during such welding, cutting, or soldering.”

codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/30/22/III/871

[John]

Believe me I was a little shocked when I found out they allowed welding and burning underground in NSW collieries in 1979, the year I started working down NSW pits.

Pretty strict ground rules were laid out, like no production, nobody working on the return side of the welding/burning, minimum number of men underground while burning and welding. Must be a Deputy assigned to the operation, taking gas readings at 20 minute durations, the area wetted down with fire fighting hoses, a fire fighting team in attendance. Then on completion of the repairs, the whole area hosed down.
A Deputy was required to cover the area for 12 hours afterwards and examine every 20 minutes or so and test for gas... Pain in the butt!!

The Gullick chocks on one face I worked on at Angus Place had to be welded on site. Everything was hosed down, the area was swimming with water, then everything was stone dusted from one end of the face to the other. On completion, yep, water fight, with three inch fire fighting hoses until the Deputy was satisfied. He had to stay until relieved accompanied by a firefighting team.

Then the new regs came into effect, no more welding or burning underground.

I hear that's altered again..

[mineruk]

I remeber at Kimblesworth dift in the Durham a miner was caught smoking he was sacked on the spot the beaten up in a local pub.
Because he was putting mens lives at risk.

[shropshirebloke]

Probably explains why the only time I ever remember us being searched was on the bank at the end of the shift - after some son of a pregnant dog had nicked an overman's lamp when he left it with his jacket before an awkward crawl to check a booster fan. OK, he shouldn't have left it but it wasn't lit and didn't represent a safety hazard.

[shropshirebloke]

I just love the profanity checker on here - I actually said "son of a female dog".....

[dazbt]

Jul 4, 2011 14:16:00 GMT -5 shropshirebloke said:

I just love the profanity checker on here - I actually said "son of a female dog".....

Shocking, absolutely disgusting, the censor chooses to stop the use of the word "b*i*t*c*h" yet allows the word "overman" in the same sentence, what is this world coming to, where are the real moral values ?

[shropshirebloke]

The really shocking thing is that the overman in question was a really nice and popular bloke!

[dazbt]

Jul 4, 2011 15:50:05 GMT -5 shropshirebloke said:

The really shocking thing is that the overman in question was a really nice and popular bloke!

That's nice to hear, there were one or two that escaped the net.

[John]

Searches were infrequent I agree, but one never knew when one would get searched, that was the success of the system. Were we really afraid of the searches or the men we worked with??

Me??? I was more scared of what Mother Nature could throw at us if we ignored the contraband rules...

It was real odd working at a none safety lamp mine where we were allowed to smoke with no dangers!!!

[Mick]

I remember working one easter holiday at Littleton coll,i think it was 1988.
Anyway the overman that was with us left his oil lamp in a chock so that he could give us a push with the borer, when he went to get it it had gone the thing was apart from to blokes in are team we had all worked together at Wheldale for a number of years.
I new it was not one of us that had tuck it,anyway the overman had to report it missing,about a hour later i went into the tail gate for a drink and as i was coming off the face this ars hole was was trying to put the lamp over the rings so he could get it out later.
I made shore he never worked down the pit again.
Mick.

[John]

That's one man who risked all your lives, not to mention the Overman who could have lost his job too!!

If he'd have asked, I'm sure the lamp cabin crew would have put him a lamp together from damaged parts for a couple of pints.

I never heard of anyone stealing an officials lamp before, this is the first time...

[John]

Daz, it wasn't "my AM500" although I'll bet I would have been sitting pretty for what I could sell it for.

But how I knew it, an AM400 was 400HP and the AM500 was 500HP.
The 500 had many differences to the 400 I worked on, electro/electronic controlled haulage system on the 500, much larger machine physically and even Alex Downie named it the AM500 in his books we were issued with for training.

The AM500 was a far more complicated machine from the electrical standpoint, I can't comment on mechanical differences.

I will be scanning my booklets I was issued with and they will be going on the website in all good time. You can then peruse them yourself and let me know what your interpretation of an AM500is over the 400.

If an Anderson Strathclyde technician calls it an AM500, who am I to argue the point Daz..

Bit like the Wecol A67 and the P70 GEB's, basically the same, just different working voltages. The A =up to 1100 volts and the P= 415 to 660 volts.

I'd be interested to hear your comments on the differences in the two machines.

[dazbt]

Jul 5, 2011 19:05:22 GMT -5 John said:

Daz, it wasn't "my AM500" although I'll bet I would have been sitting pretty for what I could sell it for.

But how I knew it, an AM400 was 400HP and the AM500 was 500HP.
The 500 had many differences to the 400 I worked on, electro/electronic controlled haulage system on the 500, much larger machine physically and even Alex Downie named it the AM500 in his books we were issued with for training.

The AM500 was a far more complicated machine from the electrical standpoint, I can't comment on mechanical differences.

I will be scanning my booklets I was issued with and they will be going on the website in all good time. You can then peruse them yourself and let me know what your interpretation of an AM500is over the 400.

If an Anderson Strathclyde technician calls it an AM500, who am I to argue the point Daz..

Bit like the Wecol A67 and the P70 GEB's, basically the same, just different working voltages. The A =up to 1100 volts and the P= 415 to 660 volts.

I'd be interested to hear your comments on the differences in the two machines.

Either way 400 or 500 it would be worth a bob or two in scrap alone but the chances are that you could buy a brand new one from China for the same sort of price these days. Anderson Strathclyde had a Technology Transfer deal with China that allowed them to manufacture AM500, started in the 1980s I believe it was initially for the Chinese to produce their own unit castings and later the gearing, the deal was that all the other internals, hydraulics etc. were to be of Anderson manufacture, but it didn't take them long to produce their own full replicas.
I would be more than extremely interested to see anything that relates to the AM400, I have never seen one or been involved with any machine of that 'title', as the saying goes it's a new one on me. Not to say that Andersons were averse to making one offs by the way. I appreciate that you're up to your elbows in working to update the site (much appreciated and awaited for, by the way) but a 'quick flash' of the AM400 configuration drawing would be great, I could readjust my thinking cap then

[John]

I don't have much on the AM400 Daz, the machine was electrically pretty basic, much like the AB16 electrics, haulage was via a swashplate pump with external control to "crank" it for speed control.

All my info is for the AM500, which I was involved with as longwall electrician then leading hand on nights.

The AM400 was installed during the late70's and cut LW1,2,3,4,5,6 and 7, then the AM500 with Dowty shields replaced the old face which was "donated" under duress to a private colliery to the east of Lithgow.

The only thing of interest on the AM400 are the schematics, which were almost identical to the AB16, and photos I took of the old girl on her last face.

Incidently, Angus Place was the first successful Longwall installation, the prior one on the south coast of NSW was a complete disaster in the 1960's, which if I recall was at Bellambi Colliery and was either a AB16/125 or 200 with ranging arms. The chocks were modified Gullick five leg Seamans which just weren't heavy enough to withstand the loads, or sandstone roof. The whole lot, I believe, are still buried under tons of Illawarra sandstone.

Angus Place was a feather in Anderson's cap! LW1 broke many world cutting records. I think LW1 was installed around 1979, if that's of any use.

[dazbt]

The AM500 series was not named by virtue of the motor HP John it was based on nominal (minimum height), the AM500 series included 400HP, 500Hp and twin motor 1,000HP configurations but was only known officially as AM500, the HP value of the machine made no difference to title. The various types of haulage systems, whether mechanical, power pack or integral hydraulic drive systems, in the same manner as the motor varients made no difference to the fact that the machine was an AM500.
The other ranges of AB, AM or AS shearers were also identified by their nominal height configuration numbers, including the 12", 15", 16", 500mm, 420mm series, the real complications as I have tried to explain previously came along with the variation of single component names such as the 270 AMBROAS gearhead, the 17" mechanical haulage Low Type and even worse the 22" High Type haulage, MK1, MK2 or Mk4, the various electric moto HPs, all those different titled individual units were part of the AB16 shearer range, and whatever configuration of them the resultant shearer was an AB16, in much the same way that whatever variation or combination of units were used to compose an AM500 it was always the AM500. The 'silly part' was that the resultant machine could end up with an official title as daft as AB16" 17" Mechanical haulage or AB16" 200HP 22" High Type Servo Haulage DERDS, but still officially be an AB16". I'm therefore reasonably confident that your AM400 was in fact an AM500 with a 400hp (300KW [294.2KW]) electric motor, but I could be convinced otherwise if I saw an AS/AM document with AM400 on it............... on the other hand I'm often wrong ;D

[John]

Jul 6, 2011 7:56:39 GMT -5 dazbt said:

The AM500 series was not named by virtue of the motor HP John it was based on nominal (minimum height), the AM500 series included 400HP, 500Hp and twin motor 1,000HP configurations but was only known officially as AM500, the HP value of the machine made no difference to title. The various types of haulage systems, whether mechanical, power pack or integral hydraulic drive systems, in the same manner as the motor varients made no difference to the fact that the machine was an AM500.
The other ranges of AB, AM or AS shearers were also identified by their nominal height configuration numbers, including the 12", 15", 16", 500mm, 420mm series, the real complications as I have tried to explain previously came along with the variation of single component names such as the 270 AMBROAS gearhead, the 17" mechanical haulage Low Type and even worse the 22" High Type haulage, MK1, MK2 or Mk4, the various electric moto HPs, all those different titled individual units were part of the AB16 shearer range, and whatever configuration of them the resultant shearer was an AB16, in much the same way that whatever variation or combination of units were used to compose an AM500 it was always the AM500. The 'silly part' was that the resultant machine could end up with an official title as daft as AB16" 17" Mechanical haulage or AB16" 200HP 22" High Type Servo Haulage DERDS, but still officially be an AB16". I'm therefore reasonably confident that your AM400 was in fact an AM500 with a 400hp (300KW [294.2KW]) electric motor, but I could be convinced otherwise if I saw an AS/AM document with AM400 on it............... on the other hand I'm often wrong ;D

I thought it was to do with HP Daz, never questioned at the time whether AM400 was numbered accordingly, unfortunately all I have are the machines schematics, didn't really need those, as it was a fairly basic machine from the electrical stand point, just the standard torque motor, isolator, in fact pretty much the same as the old AB16 electrics other than 1100v over 550 and larger horsepower. There's one photo of it on this site.
coalmine.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=mia&action=display&thread=718 I don't know if you can ID it from the angle I took the photo from, I do have more.

[John]

This was the new AM500 that was being checked over before going underground on the new LW8 face. I actually drove this machine many times.

[John]

Daz, I'll scan you some pages from Alex's manual he produced for that beast later today and upload them to my photobucket account with links here.

[dazbt]

That sounds great J, I'll be looking forward to that, long lost memories refreshed ........... perhaps. I well remember the first AM500 that I 'met up with' at Kellingley, up to that point I had only ever worked in the thinner seams around Barnsley, the AB. HD Trepanner being the biggest monster I had to deal with, I found it incredible that AB made anything bigger than that or that God had actually created coal in seams thicker than 48".

[dazbt]

"Methane explosion at mine in Luhansk region likely caused by smoking

NRCU - Ukrainian Radio

August 5, 2011

The probable cause of a methane explosion at the Chervonokutska mine in Krasny Luch, Luhansk region was smoking. This was disclosed during a press conference, by Deputy Head of the State Mining Supervision Victor Shaitan.

According to him, in the place of fire, packs of cigarettes were found. The official added that, according to safety regulations, smoking is prohibited in mines and miners before they go down should remove all fire-flammable materials.

26 miners have been wounded Thursday after methane explosion at the Chervonokutska mine in Krasny Luch, Luhansk region. One of them died in hospital. State of some miners remain very serious.

Victor Shaitan also informed that today - tomorrow expert commission will publish the official conclusions of the causes of accidents in mines Sukhodolska East and Bazhanov."

[John]

Aug 6, 2011 1:24:53 GMT -5 dazbt said:

"Methane explosion at mine in Luhansk region likely caused by smoking

NRCU - Ukrainian Radio

August 5, 2011

The probable cause of a methane explosion at the Chervonokutska mine in Krasny Luch, Luhansk region was smoking. This was disclosed during a press conference, by Deputy Head of the State Mining Supervision Victor Shaitan.

According to him, in the place of fire, packs of cigarettes were found. The official added that, according to safety regulations, smoking is prohibited in mines and miners before they go down should remove all fire-flammable materials.

26 miners have been wounded Thursday after methane explosion at the Chervonokutska mine in Krasny Luch, Luhansk region. One of them died in hospital. State of some miners remain very serious.

Victor Shaitan also informed that today - tomorrow expert commission will publish the official conclusions of the causes of accidents in mines Sukhodolska East and Bazhanov."

From what I gather, the Ukraine has a very high coal mine accident rate Daz.

[dazbt]

Aug 6, 2011 8:00:30 GMT -5 John said:

Aug 6, 2011 1:24:53 GMT -5 dazbt said:

"Methane explosion at mine in Luhansk region likely caused by smoking

NRCU - Ukrainian Radio

August 5, 2011

The probable cause of a methane explosion at the Chervonokutska mine in Krasny Luch, Luhansk region was smoking. This was disclosed during a press conference, by Deputy Head of the State Mining Supervision Victor Shaitan.

According to him, in the place of fire, packs of cigarettes were found. The official added that, according to safety regulations, smoking is prohibited in mines and miners before they go down should remove all fire-flammable materials.

26 miners have been wounded Thursday after methane explosion at the Chervonokutska mine in Krasny Luch, Luhansk region. One of them died in hospital. State of some miners remain very serious.

Victor Shaitan also informed that today - tomorrow expert commission will publish the official conclusions of the causes of accidents in mines Sukhodolska East and Bazhanov."

From what I gather, the Ukraine has a very high coal mine accident rate Daz.

Pro rata I believe Turkey has the world's worst mining deaths/accidents.

[dazbt]

Aug 8, 2011 7:08:28 GMT -5 dazbt said:

Aug 6, 2011 8:00:30 GMT -5 John said:

From what I gather, the Ukraine has a very high coal mine accident rate Daz.

Pro rata I believe Turkey has the world's worst mining deaths/accidents.

Apparently (and surprisingly) the Ukranian mines are less dangerous than quite a few other countries, including Ireland, based on numbers of fatal injuries per 100,000 workers in mines and quarries up to the year 2008;


"The following list prepared using mostly ILO statistics from the UN agency’s LABORSTA database indicates the most dangerous countries for miners and workers in quarrying, as ranked by fatal injuries per 100,000 employees for a period from 1999-2008.

1. Turkey
2. Korea, Republic of
3. China
4. Pakistan
5. Cyprus
6. Kyrgyzstan
7. Togo
8. Hong Kong, China
9. Ireland
10. Taiwan, China
11. Costa Rica
12. Lithuania
13. Portugal
14. Ukraine "

[John]

Aug 9, 2011 4:44:26 GMT -5 dazbt said:

Aug 8, 2011 7:08:28 GMT -5 dazbt said:

Pro rata I believe Turkey has the world's worst mining deaths/accidents.

Apparently (and surprisingly) the Ukranian mines are less dangerous than quite a few other countries, including Ireland, based on numbers of fatal injuries per 100,000 workers in mines and quarries up to the year 2008;


"The following list prepared using mostly ILO statistics from the UN agency’s LABORSTA database indicates the most dangerous countries for miners and workers in quarrying, as ranked by fatal injuries per 100,000 employees for a period from 1999-2008.

1. Turkey
2. Korea, Republic of
3. China
4. Pakistan
5. Cyprus
6. Kyrgyzstan
7. Togo
8. Hong Kong, China
9. Ireland
10. Taiwan, China
11. Costa Rica
12. Lithuania
13. Portugal
14. Ukraine "

Interesting that China is No3!! I'd have bet anything they took the number one position Daz.

[dazbt]

Aug 9, 2011 17:00:22 GMT -5 John said:

Aug 9, 2011 4:44:26 GMT -5 dazbt said:

Apparently (and surprisingly) the Ukranian mines are less dangerous than quite a few other countries, including Ireland, based on numbers of fatal injuries per 100,000 workers in mines and quarries up to the year 2008;


"The following list prepared using mostly ILO statistics from the UN agency’s LABORSTA database indicates the most dangerous countries for miners and workers in quarrying, as ranked by fatal injuries per 100,000 employees for a period from 1999-2008.

1. Turkey
2. Korea, Republic of
3. China
4. Pakistan
5. Cyprus
6. Kyrgyzstan
7. Togo
8. Hong Kong, China
9. Ireland
10. Taiwan, China
11. Costa Rica
12. Lithuania
13. Portugal
14. Ukraine "

Interesting that China is No3!! I'd have bet anything they took the number one position Daz.

without doubt China has the highest number of "declared" mining deaths overall and certainly that list will fall well short of the actuality. These figures are the first I've seen that logically compare the number of deaths with the actual number of working miners, other lists that I've seen published previously have compared countries fatality/injury totals by million tons produced. I believe that these figures (deaths pro rata to employed numbers) give a better comparison of accident rates.

[John]

I didn't realize Portugal had a coal industry..

[dazbt]

Aug 12, 2011 7:41:24 GMT -5 John said:

I didn't realize Portugal had a coal industry..

I believe the comparison list covers all types of mining and quarrying J.
Portugal did have coal mines, at least until the time I retired 1996, though I'm not sure who has what these days

[erichall]

Jul 7, 2011 11:14:12 GMT -5 dazbt said:

That sounds great J, I'll be looking forward to that, long lost memories refreshed ........... perhaps. I well remember the first AM500 that I 'met up with' at Kellingley, up to that point I had only ever worked in the thinner seams around Barnsley, the AB. HD Trepanner being the biggest monster I had to deal with, I found it incredible that AB made anything bigger than that or that God had actually created coal in seams thicker than 48".

You mean there were seams as thich as 48 inches?
I spent most of my working life in seams where 42 inches was considered a 'good height to work' bearing in mind that the actual working height on mechanised faces was always some 8-12 inches less than the extracted height,after taking in the canopy and the ram and base. I also found that the most useful piece of equipment to have at home was a pair of kneepads, since the shovelling of any material was always easier on ones knees.

[erichall]

Jul 2, 2011 19:19:44 GMT -5 John said:

Glad I never went underground to work over here, I'd have hightailed it to the surface real quickly had anyone lit up around me.....

I once asked the blokes I worked with at Clifton what they would do if they caught someone smoking underground. They all said "STRETCHER CASE"!!

Totally a different mentality we had in UK mining.

Odd though, I used to smoke back then and it never bothered me not being able to smoke, but jeeze, when I was on the cage heading for bank, I'd have killed for a ciggie, couldn't run across to the electric shop fast enough to get me ciggies and inhale that first "drag"....

It was something one was brought up to accept. I used to some as many as 50-60 a day, but never gave a thought to smoking underground. It never worried me. Mind, the three best smokes of any day were - breakfast before a dayshift start (a cup of tea, a smoke and a good cough!), the last draw before going underground, and , like you, the race to grab the first fag on exiting.
Talking of smoking underground, however, reminded me of one of my first shotfiring jobs. I was supervising a team of Tail Gate Back Repair men, who required the occasional shot. I had hung my newly acquired Bobby's Jacket just outby of the work when one of the haulage lads shouted me to come outbye to him urgently. He wanted a small bandage for a cut finger and the lads knew I always kept some in my jacket for anyone to use. He still insisted I came. Furious at leaving the job I was about to tear him a strip off, when he suggested I look in the jacket. In one of the pockets was a half-full box of matches, which I had overlooked. I surreptitiously proceeded to wash away the brimstone of the ends, put the matches in my pocket, and couldn't wait to get out of the pit to get rid of the evidence! I never forgot that incident, and always thereafter,checked my pockets thoroughly!