Insight Into Thatchers Plans for the NUM!

[John]

An excellent report on the battleplans for the dismantling of the coal industry and the industrial action that would and did ensue.
The government played it's cards right, the NUM totally fell into the Thatcher trap.

socialistregister.com/socialistregister.com/files/SR_1985_86_Saville.pdf

[limey]

Interesting - but when all is said and done, it is clear to me the coal industry in the U.K. was doomed. If the mines could not operate profitably, and it is clear that most could not, then it becomes inevitable that they must close.

I will not defend Thatcher - I think she was (and is) an evil woman, but the truth is she oversaw a restructuring of the UK that was both needed, and successful. I do not think the U.K. would be in such good shape today if she had not made those reforms.

Many of us have seen mining operations in other countries. When you have seen how a profitable coal mine in the USA operates, it is hard to imagine how the mines under the NCB umbrella could ever have been profitable?

It is easy to blame Thatcher for the demise of the coal industry - but the unions also played their part, perhaps even more so in the demise of the British auto industry. The parallels of what is happening in Detroit with the situation in England 40 years ago is pretty interesting - the unions fighting for more, when the companies clearly cannot afford it. It becomes a death spiral. It is clear that businesses large, small or nationalised, cannot continually operate with a negative balance sheet. If they are forced to do so, eventually everybody looses.

[John]

limey said:

Interesting - but when all is said and done, it is clear to me the coal industry in the U.K. was doomed. If the mines could not operate profitably, and it is clear that most could not, then it becomes inevitable that they must close.

I will not defend Thatcher - I think she was (and is) an evil woman, but the truth is she oversaw a restructuring of the UK that was both needed, and successful. I do not think the U.K. would be in such good shape today if she had not made those reforms.

Many of us have seen mining operations in other countries. When you have seen how a profitable coal mine in the USA operates, it is hard to imagine how the mines under the NCB umbrella could ever have been profitable?

It is easy to blame Thatcher for the demise of the coal industry - but the unions also played their part, perhaps even more so in the demise of the British auto industry. The parallels of what is happening in Detroit with the situation in England 40 years ago is pretty interesting - the unions fighting for more, when the companies clearly cannot afford it. It becomes a death spiral. It is clear that businesses large, small or nationalised, cannot continually operate with a negative balance sheet. If they are forced to do so, eventually everybody looses.

There's a lot of truth in that Eric, I worked for the NSW Electricity Commission's mine at Angus Place for a while, and we produced and delivered coal to the power station's gates at US$13 a tonne, I use US dollars against Aus Dollars as that is what the company used as a measure. No min in the world could match that price per tonne delivered! There were about 340 people on the payroll total, one longwall cutting around 48,000 tonnes of coal per week. All coal went up a drift straight into the ROM bin on the surface ready for crushing and loading on trucks.
Pay was the same as at any other NSW or Queensland mine, but my weekly bonus was more than my pay! Granted conditions were far superior to most British pits and the seam section was around 12 to 14 feet thick, clean and do dirt bands.
We used to measure OMS by the tens of tonnes not cwt's.
Most exporting Aus pits can cut and deliver coal to the UK cheaper than any British pit could produce the coal, AND still make a good profit. Doesn't bear looking at!

[Ragger]

While I agree that small companies cannot continually operate with a negative balance sheet, the same is not true of a Nationalised enterprise.
Governments are not restricted by the same rules as small enterprises. Governments have more, far-reaching, things to consider. Their objectives, obligations and decisions affect not only the people employed in a nationalised enterprise, they affect the hundreds of companies that supply goods and services to the nationalised industry as well. These supply companies are also supplied with goods and services from other companies, and so on and so on, affecting more and more people.
Closing down an industry as big as the British Coal Industry was, at a time when there were very few jobs to replace the ones lost, was not the best economic option. It would have been far cheaper to keep the pits open, even if a small subsidy was necessary, rather than pay thousands and thousands of people dole money.
Of course the destruction of the coal industry was never about the industry being economically viable. It was all about revenge. The destruction was well planned, over 11 years, until coal stocks were built up at numerous locations and funds set aside to carry out the plan.
Perhaps Scargill’s strategy could/should have been different, but if the Government had been as loyal to its people as the NUM members were to their Union, the fight would never have been fought in the first place.

[John]

It's a very interesting paper regardless of the outcome Bill! Shows how the strike was manipulated many years before the NUM knew anything was amiss.
How close at times the government was ready to throw the towel in, especially if the TUC backed the miners, or public opinion swayed against Thatcher.

Your so right too, so many jobs relied on the coal industry, then there's all those lost exports of UK made machinery and electrical products. With no local place to field test the equipment, the manufacturers were doomed.

What were the figures?? 8 none mining jobs supported by every mineworker??

I often wonder what would have happened to Thatcher had she failed against the NUM. Doomed to the backbenches??

[John]

Looks like the link in this thread is dead, I suspect the webpage it was on has moved to a different host.
IF, anyone comes across it again, please place a live link to it. It was a damned good paper.
I'll do some surfing later and see if I can relocate it.

[John]

A couple of days back I found the Annual Report for 1988/9 South Yorkshire Area.

Quite the opposite views to what limey states.
It shows the profits made, yes profits! Of the collieries in that particular British Coal area.

Goldthorpe 17.529 million pounds.

Hatfield. 3.511 million pounds.

Maltby. 9.498 million pounds.

Rossington. 9.686 million pounds.

Silverwood. 16.464 million pounds.


Not bad for so called unprofitable pits!!

Plus many records! Just shows what can be done with investment in machinery.

I'd love to find the area reports for the other coalfields!

I'll be publishing that report, 20 plus pages on the website soon.

[Sam from Kent]

I remember in the Kent Coalfield we were making massive bonuses and we were exporting our coal on roll on / roll off containers to Holland. Only for it to be stockpiled ready to be re imported to break us. Why did'nt we realise what was going on?

[blueflame]

remember they also closed Tower saying is was not profitable but was proved very wrong, with good management it worked.
it was not only the pits that thatcher closed it was the whole valleys of south wales. Whole communities like shops businesses and even schools.
thatcher wanted to win at any cost, everything we owned like water-electricity-shipping all cosed down.
It was not only the industries she killed, the country was killed too.

AND THERE WAS TALK OF A STATE Funereal WHEN SHE POPPES HER CLOGS
Her place belongs at the bottom of the deepest shaft

[John]

True, very true, but also remember the manufacturers of mining equipment, suppliers of pit props, service industries that overhauled the mining equipment. Not to mention the export trade of mining machinery!!
Loss of technical trades, in fact remember for every worker employed in the coal industry, at least ten were lost in outside industries!! That's well over one million jobs lost, and all because the Tories wanted to smash the NUM.

I left the UK the year Thatcher was elected, but I will have a private party when she "snuffs it".

[dazbt]

LADY IN WAX

Ferociously ferrous,
Handbag at the ready
Not for changing
But she was.
Iron to wax
A casting alteration.
Modern Bodecia
In unmoving stance
Now as then
In South Atlantic Isles’
Bitter battle zones
Amidst South Yorkshire’s
Meddlesome mines
When all around froze,
The lady kept her head

And now?

"The man who knocked the head off a statue of former prime minister Margaret Thatcher has been jailed for three months."

LINK to story;
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2779597.stm

[Sam from Kent]

What is really criminal is that the statue is valued at £150.000

[John]

Now the cost of the funeral will be criminal!!! Unless some kidnaps her now and disposes of her...

[Sam from Kent]

I wouldn't worry about the cost of the funeral, even a state funeral, the sooner the better ;D