IF!!

[John]

IF!! we'd been forced to work by the book, ie M&Q Act, to the letter of the law, how much coal would have been produced??

Lets start with Inspectors and Managers "blind eyes"!

Traveling roads below statutory heights.
Stonedusting not adequate.
Bottom belt and idler rollers not cleaned often enough.

[Sam from Kent]

None of us would have left pit bottom!!!

[John]

Probably wouldn't leave the changing room Sam!!

[erichall]

Once remember being told by an HMI that 'The Law is made for the Observance of Fools and the Guidance of the Intelligent'
What he was trying to say that, whilst the Act was there, the best use of it was not by it's blind observance but by following 'guide lines'.

[shropshirebloke]

A classic for me was the 1950 rescue from Knockshinnock Castle Colliery, 116 men rescued thanks to the unauthorised use of rebreather sets borrowed from fire brigades.

You can find the whole report here: www.dmm2.org.uk/uknames/8180-01.htm

The final paragraphs of the Inspector's report on the rescue are particularly relevant to this thread:

"Although the Salvus was not an apparatus approved under the Rescue Regulations for use underground in mines, the decision to use it was not only triumphantly justified by the results but was right in principle. I do not think the Regulations did prohibit the use of this apparatus in the way in which it was used in this accident, but there is no doubt that the persons who had to take the decision had considerable misgivings as to whether they were breaking the law. A feeling was expressed that it was neither fair nor desirable that, at a time of emergency, such persons should be placed in this position.

I am in full sympathy with this feeling but it seems to me that the matter goes much deeper than these particular Regulations, right down, in fact, to the sanctity of the whole safety code in crises of danger when lives are at stake to be saved and, oft-times in that endeavour, to be risked too. There are many statutory requirements drawn in strict and absolute terms, full compliance with which in times of emergency would seriously hinder the saving of life.

The safety code is for the normal working operation of the mines and it cannot be observed in all respects in these crises risks are inevitable and in some respects "necessity knows no law". In my opinion it is best left at that. Whatever might be done to protect those who bear these heavy responsibilities, their actions would still have to be guided by the circumstances of the occasion. I do not think it is possible to frame a provision which would give the necessary wide contingent liberty while providing adequate safeguards against ambiguity and abuse. I believe that an attempt to make precise something that in its nature cannot be precise would defeat its own ends, and sometimes perhaps make things even more difficult than they are now for those concerned. "

The role of David Park, Deputy Labour Director of the Scottish Division of the National Coal Board, also went far beyond the call of duty.

Anyroad, read the whole report for yourselves, then ask yourselves - would these men have lived if this had happened today?

[John]

From what I recall of the M&Q Act, and Eric will be able to correct me if I'm wrong, being an ex Undermanager, you can violate the Act if so doing will save lives in an emergency. So technically, the decision to use those breathing apparatus was correct under the circumstances, whether approved or not.
Obviously, one must take decisions that are relevant to the situation in hand during an emergency.

[John]

I think there are sections of the Act that state "except in an emergency" too. Been a long time since I delved into it.

[inbye]

Mar 7, 2011 16:45:25 GMT -5 shropshirebloke said:

A classic for me was the 1950 rescue from Knockshinnock Castle Colliery, 116 men rescued thanks to the unauthorised use of rebreather sets borrowed from fire brigades.

You can find the whole report here: www.dmm2.org.uk/uknames/8180-01.htm

The final paragraphs of the Inspector's report on the rescue are particularly relevant to this thread:

"Although the Salvus was not an apparatus approved under the Rescue Regulations for use underground in mines, the decision to use it was not only triumphantly justified by the results but was right in principle. I do not think the Regulations did prohibit the use of this apparatus in the way in which it was used in this accident, but there is no doubt that the persons who had to take the decision had considerable misgivings as to whether they were breaking the law. A feeling was expressed that it was neither fair nor desirable that, at a time of emergency, such persons should be placed in this position.

I am in full sympathy with this feeling but it seems to me that the matter goes much deeper than these particular Regulations, right down, in fact, to the sanctity of the whole safety code in crises of danger when lives are at stake to be saved and, oft-times in that endeavour, to be risked too. There are many statutory requirements drawn in strict and absolute terms, full compliance with which in times of emergency would seriously hinder the saving of life.

The safety code is for the normal working operation of the mines and it cannot be observed in all respects in these crises risks are inevitable and in some respects "necessity knows no law". In my opinion it is best left at that. Whatever might be done to protect those who bear these heavy responsibilities, their actions would still have to be guided by the circumstances of the occasion. I do not think it is possible to frame a provision which would give the necessary wide contingent liberty while providing adequate safeguards against ambiguity and abuse. I believe that an attempt to make precise something that in its nature cannot be precise would defeat its own ends, and sometimes perhaps make things even more difficult than they are now for those concerned. "

The role of David Park, Deputy Labour Director of the Scottish Division of the National Coal Board, also went far beyond the call of duty.

Anyroad, read the whole report for yourselves, then ask yourselves - would these men have lived if this had happened today?

Agreed, one of the "great" stories in British mining history. There was a book written, factually based, of the disaster. I believe it was "Black Avalanche" by Arthur & Mary Selwood, a good read.

There was also a very well made feature film, which followed the events closely. This was "The Brave don't cry" & I believe David Park was played by John Gregson. The scenes of the surface crater forming & the torrent of liquid peat underground, were completely realistic.

The sad twist to this story, is that the team of men who were driving the heading that broke into the liquid peat, managed to survive the inrush, but being trapped in a working that was cut off by the peat, lingered for days, if not weeks, after the rescue of their mates. Doesn't bear thinking about....

[shropshirebloke]

The fate of the 13 lads in the inrush is one of those things I try not to think about - I just hope it was quick.

I've seen the film you mention and it was excellent - just try buying a copy. Interestingly I went to tech in Shrewsbury with Maureen Keir - the daughter of Andrew Keir who played 'Charlie Ross' in the film. An ex-miner, he went on to star in many films and TV series, including the Quatermass films.

I remember his first wife, Julia Wallace, a lovely little Scotswoman, who once gave a group of us students a superb meal. The actress Julie T Wallace ('Life and Loves of a She Devil') was another of their daughters.

[John]

Anyone wanting to watch the movie, "The Brave Don't Cry"
Can do so for free at this site, I'll be watching it later.

www.watchthisfree.com/movies/1952/the-brave-dont-cry/watch/

[inbye]

Mar 8, 2011 16:25:15 GMT -5 John said:

Anyone wanting to watch the movie, "The Brave Don't Cry"
Can do so for free at this site, I'll be watching it later.

www.watchthisfree.com/movies/1952/the-brave-dont-cry/watch/

You'll enjoy it, one of the best, most realistic mining films I've ever watched.

The point about the poor sods driving the "peat" heading, is that the end was far from quick. Written messages were later found, which showed they had survived long after their colleauges were rescued. These poor buggers probably died of starvation....

[shropshirebloke]

Thanks for that Inbye - you've just reminded me how very small we all really are. I don't do religion, but now and then you have to stop and think about what really matters - and it's people.

[inbye]

Mar 8, 2011 16:52:15 GMT -5 shropshirebloke said:

Thanks for that Inbye - you've just reminded me how very small we all really are. I don't do religion, but now and then you have to stop and think about what really matters - and it's people.

Yes, you're right....kind of puts thing into perspective.

It's a long time since I read the report, or the book, but from memory the workings became pressurised due to the peat/water sealing the exits. This would have tended to keep any gas back, which maybe only added to the suffering.
Those men would have soon been in total darkness (we all know the darkness of the pit) what little "snap" they had would soon go & all they had then was unpalatable mine water to sustain them. Could you imagine a more desperate situation? Imagine the state the last one alive would be in..........I can't.

[erichall]

Almost every day I pick up a newspaper, and see where the 'emergency services' or the police or fire or ambulance stand by in an emergency because 'They haven't had the correct training' or they haven't 'completed a risk assessment' before taking action. It was only last week when I spotted one of the Crowd Stewards at a football match filling out a 'Risk assessment' Form (admittedly at a quiet time) - his job - a bin collector for the council!
I wonder where the pits would have been had this sort of thing occurred in our mining days? We lived with risk, learned to assess it, literarally 'at a glance', and still found time to cope with the Health and Safety in Mines of Coal Act.
Taking a first-aid exam during the 84 strike, I was asked by a young nurse, what Iwould do if I came across a man lying under a fall of rock, bleeding copiously, and not breathing. She didn't like my answer which was to assess the situation, get the man breathing then stop the bleeding. Her reply, although technically correct was that the first thing I should have done was to make the place safe by setting timber. 'Sorry, love,' was my answer, 'I would assess the situation, decide the likelyhood of further falls and get the man out asap.' 'You must first ensure your own safety before you even consider trying to save the man.' she said. 'Ever been down a pit, love?. You put your life at risk as soon as you step on the chair, and so you learn when it's 'safe' to go or not.' was my considered reply.
One thing I always remember was taking a F.A Course at Newcastle Uni,when the lecturer, an eminent Surgeon from the RVI in N'castle asked about injection of morphia. There was a list of conditions when it was inadvisable to administer morphia. 'Forget it. If the man's in pain and has to be brought oit of the mine, stick the needle in!' was his reply. 'Carry him out as carefully as you like, and get him to hospital. If he hasn't already died of shock, and whatever his injuries, the first thing we'll do at Hospital is to stick the needle in.'
Risk Assessment - it's what a miner lives with all his working hours and no amount of form filling will make it any better.

[philford734]

The Pike River explosion and how it was handled was awful. IF it had happened in the past before New Zealand did away with there Mines Inspectorate the rescue work would have been handled differently. Not by the untrained so I cannot do the job experts. To us that have had experience and training in rescue operations it was very frustrating sitting looking at the TV reports coming from Pike River.
Things are done in this country differently. We have an excellent inspectorate and rescue service. The lads in Pike River may have died in the initial explosion but what IF.

[John]

Too true Eric, first man who arrives at the scene of an accident has to use his experience to access if it's safe for him to approach the injured man. Better to make a quick risk assessment and drag the man out, takes time to get the props and get them set.

And Phil, made me wonder how a senior police officer could lead a rescue, make decisions when he had no mining experience himself!!
The moment after the explosion would have given a rescue team with breathing apparatus a short "window of time" to get in so far for a look.

[Deleted]

Very little coal would have come I reckon, after all when a work to rule was employed instead of a strike as a dispute it showed just how many rules were" ignored? "on a daily basis to keep the coal flowing.