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Post by tygwyn on Feb 9, 2014 20:56:58 GMT -5
Were any seams worked up North below the Millstone Grit/Farewell Rock when it outcropped?
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Post by John on Feb 10, 2014 7:20:32 GMT -5
Were any seams worked up North below the Millstone Grit/Farewell Rock when it outcropped? I always thought the Millstone grit was the bottom of the Lower coal measures, there are no coal seams registered below the Millstone in Notts, Derbyshire/Yorkshire coalfields Jim.
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Post by John on Feb 10, 2014 8:38:18 GMT -5
This was a borehole sunk to the south west of Nottingham, at Ruddington by the owners of Clifton Colliery, my first pit. Drilled in the 1890's it was done to check how far south west the seams were. The middle measures were missing to some extent, and the last coal Clifton worked were about 200 yards to the east of Ruddington...It was found water bearing strata was close by due to the strata rising...Deep Soft, Deep Hard seams outcrop just west of Ruddington.
Note the millstone grit and the last seam logged was one below the Alton seam.
Borehole log
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Post by John on Feb 10, 2014 8:48:29 GMT -5
Here's another borehold log, this time done by the NCB, around half a mile east of the above bore, it wasn't sunk to the Milstone Grit, but to prove the last workable seam, Ashgate. I think the Ashgate and Blackshale merge, as Cotgrave lists the Blackshale as around 10 feet thick, and a lot deeper as the strata dips about 5 degrees to the east.NCB borehole 1967.
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Post by John on Feb 10, 2014 9:26:13 GMT -5
Here's another NCB borehole, a couple of miles east and slightly south of the last one, drilled just west of Cotgrave Village, the pit was sunk a couple of hundred yards east of this borehole. The borehole was drilled to 2830ft, and it appears the last seam was at 2116ft, probably the Alton seam. NCB Borehole log.
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Post by tygwyn on Feb 10, 2014 11:53:01 GMT -5
Any idea if any were in Scotland ,Cumbria or the North East?
Surely South Wales was`nt the only place a seam below the Farewell Rock was worked on the outcrop.
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Post by John on Feb 10, 2014 12:28:05 GMT -5
Any idea if any were in Scotland ,Cumbria or the North East? Surely South Wales was`nt the only place a seam below the Farewell Rock was worked on the outcrop. From what I've been reading this morning Jim, "Millstone Grit" applies to all hard sandstone measures hard enough to be turned into "millwheels".. So the term is a bit ambiguous regarding coal mining. In the Notts coalfield it's classed as the bottom of the coal seams in the "lower measures". There are only thin sandstones apart from the Bunter, now renamed the Sherwood sandstone layer, very thick, very soft and water bearing, which is just above the middle coal measures. (top coal measures in Notts, the upper coal measures are missing.)
The borings for oil carried out show no coal measures below the Millstone Grit in Notts, I'll do some checks on Lincs drillings, but as the coal measures under Lincolnshire are the same ones in Notts, but a lot deeper, I doubt there will be.
It's a long process and rather eye straining, but I use the BGS's borehole log site for seam etc information.BGS Borehole Log Site.
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Post by tygwyn on Feb 10, 2014 14:48:28 GMT -5
Maybe Clogs/Buckhill will notice this thread,he`ll be sure to answer the Cumbrian situation,maybe the other`s as well.
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Post by dazbt on Feb 11, 2014 3:15:46 GMT -5
With an uneducated guess I would think that no coal seams below the “Millstone Grit” were mined in Yorkshire ................... but having said that, it depends very much (as John suggests) on what is defined by “Millstone Grit”. The so called Yorkshire Millstone Grit Measures are said to be up to 950 yards thick and include nearly all the coal seams within that range. Some confusion might then be generated by the fact that rock formations running North to South along the Eastern edge of the Pennines such as those seen at Wharncliffe Crags just North of Sheffield and other ‘famous’ outcrops in Derbyshire are usually described as being millstone grit, I named Wharncliffe Crags as an example of such a millstone grit outcrop because I know for certain that two coal seams exist and have been worked immediately below them, these are the Halifax Hard Coal and the deeper Halifax Soft. A short depth below these seams is (another) formation of officially known “Millstone Grit”, I believe that these Halifax Coals are the oldest of any Yorkshire worked coal seams and the “Millstone Grit” below them is the conclusion to the Yorkshire worked Coal Measures and could possibly be the equivalent of the Welsh “Farewell Rock”. I could be wrong, I usually am.
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Post by garryo on Feb 11, 2014 10:34:28 GMT -5
Coal seams mined up north below Millstone Grit
Depends what you mean as up north, if up north is beyond Yorkshire the answer is yes. In the far west of County Durham and in Northumberland the Little Limestone coal was/is worked. In fact a private drift mine in Alston still works the seam when the town needs coal, it is sometimes sold along with imported coal. The Little Limestone coal is either Anthracite or semi Anthracite. Also in the far southern part of the Durham coalfield North Tees colliery which closed in 1966 worked the Winston seam which was below the Millstone Grit. Also Shillbottle and Whittle collieries in North Norththumberland worked the Shillbottle coal about 2ft to 3ft thick until closure in 1987 indeed Whittle used an Eichoff shearer on a few 240yd faces until the coal dropped below 28inches. At its peak Whittle colliery produced over 700,000 ton a year!
Further north again Scremeston/Blackhill colliery just south of the border near Berwick worked a limestone coal until 1965.
Across the border in Scotland the majority of collieries worked Limestone series coal which was below the Millstone Grit. One of the few new collieries to work coal in the 'True Measures' ie above the Millstone Grit was Killoch in Ayshire.
No doubt there would be Limestone coals below the Millstone Grit in both Notts and Yorkshire but maybe not worked probaly owing to thickness.
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Post by John on Feb 11, 2014 11:08:38 GMT -5
Just looking at a borehole drilled for oil near Tuxford, Notts, not too far from Bevercotes, goes down to 4400feet. At approx 3492 feet is the Millstone Grit, and lo and behold there is a thin seam of coal at 3583ft approx..I use approx as it's hard to read the bores photocopied logs.
I'll keep looking for deeper boreholes later and see if I can find any more seams below that depth.
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Post by tygwyn on Feb 11, 2014 14:18:11 GMT -5
Thanks Daz and Garry,
Were them 2 Halifax seams the bottom seams in the series of seams in the Yorkshire coalfield?
There certainly was a lot of activity in Scotland below the Millstone Grit,or was this similar to what Daz mentioned about a lower Millstone Grit being equivalent to the Farewell Rock in South Wales.
In South Wales only the Sun Seam is shown on BGS plans,and only on the Southern outcrop near Caerffili,other area`s the Farewell Rock is the end of seam series.
On that 1st borehole John,there is a seam at 1760ft,1ft 4in,3in muck,1ft 4in coal,below the Millstone Grit.
Do you have a Farewell Rock on the BGS plans from the Midlands up to Scotland?
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Post by dazbt on Feb 11, 2014 17:06:10 GMT -5
I have read of the occurrence of poor quality coal banding below the Millstone Grit i8n Yorkshire but it is categorised as not being worth working. As for the Halifax seams, the only places (with one exception) that I have seen mention of them being worked are at the very Western edges of the exposed Yorkshire coalfield, obviously around Halifax and again around the north Sheffield areas where they were taken almost as a by-product of mines developed and worked to extract Ganister, Fire-Clay (or Pot Clay). The coal extracted around Wharncliffe Crags was not of high quality and don't recall hearing of the Halifax Seams being worked in any of the mines around Barnsley, that's not to say that they weren't worked under a different seam name (a popular thing to do throughout Yorkshire, some seams having 2,3 or 4 different names within a relatively small geographical area), but as I said earlier I'm certainly no expert.
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Post by tygwyn on Feb 11, 2014 17:49:29 GMT -5
The change of seam names in quite short distances is also in South Wales, I worked the Hughes seam in the Swansea Valley,it was called the Hughes under Neath and going to Briton Ferry area,but from Neath up the valley it was called the Gwenallt. Yet the Glyngwilym seam below it ,remained the same name in both valley`s.
In the upper Neath Valley the Rhondda No.3 was worked,the other side of the mountain in Seven Sisters and over to the upper Swansea Valley it was called the Lower Pinchin.
Its the correlation of seam names across the coalfield that really complicates things,being the same name seams are different quality coal,Brithdir above Big Pit is coking,Brithdir Merthyr area is dry steam with a slight coking attribute,and the Brithdir Swansea Valley is dry steam/semi Anthracite.
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Post by dazbt on Feb 13, 2014 4:04:35 GMT -5
Thanks Daz and Garry, Were them 2 Halifax seams the bottom seams in the series of seams in the Yorkshire coalfield? There certainly was a lot of activity in Scotland below the Millstone Grit,or was this similar to what Daz mentioned about a lower Millstone Grit being equivalent to the Farewell Rock in South Wales. In South Wales only the Sun Seam is shown on BGS plans,and only on the Southern outcrop near Caerffili,other area`s the Farewell Rock is the end of seam series. On that 1st borehole John,there is a seam at 1760ft,1ft 4in,3in muck,1ft 4in coal,below the Millstone Grit. Do you have a Farewell Rock on the BGS plans from the Midlands up to Scotland? Not having any knowledge of geology and therefore not recognising or understanding much of the terminology,I’ve had a “dig” around as best I could and although there seems to be a bit of confusion here and there (especially here with me), it would seem to be that all (or certainly all those that have been accessed) coal seams are inclusive of what is generally termed the Millstone Grit Measures which also includes a great number of other formations, including a variety of so called Millstone Grits. As I guessed previously the two known ‘deepest’ (or highest outcropping) worked coal seams around the area of South Yorkshire where I live are the Halifax seam group, however, it appears that slightly North and in the West Yorkshire Pennine edges there are at least two other seams that have been worked below the Halifax set, the Pot Clay and Upper Eltham seams (which is also found in East Lancashire Pennine edge and is known as the Holcombe Brook Coal), now this is where it seems a bit confusing all these seams appear to be the final (deepest) measures and sit above variously named grit formations, which would appear to be base of all coal measures, at least in Yorkshire. Plenty of info within the following links, for anyone with a day or two to spare; www.yorksgeolsoc.org.uk/BGS-Memoirs/B01550.pdfwww.aditnow.co.uk/documents/Personal-Album-8946/Baines-Yorkshire-up-to-1870.pdfnora.nerc.ac.uk/3721/1/HWR_Chatsworth_paper_vMarch08_unformatted.pdf
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Post by John on Feb 13, 2014 13:33:53 GMT -5
Thanks Daz and Garry, Were them 2 Halifax seams the bottom seams in the series of seams in the Yorkshire coalfield? There certainly was a lot of activity in Scotland below the Millstone Grit,or was this similar to what Daz mentioned about a lower Millstone Grit being equivalent to the Farewell Rock in South Wales. In South Wales only the Sun Seam is shown on BGS plans,and only on the Southern outcrop near Caerffili,other area`s the Farewell Rock is the end of seam series. On that 1st borehole John,there is a seam at 1760ft,1ft 4in,3in muck,1ft 4in coal,below the Millstone Grit. Do you have a Farewell Rock on the BGS plans from the Midlands up to Scotland? Not having any knowledge of geology and therefore not recognising or understanding much of the terminology,I’ve had a “dig” around as best I could and although there seems to be a bit of confusion here and there (especially here with me), it would seem to be that all (or certainly all those that have been accessed) coal seams are inclusive of what is generally termed the Millstone Grit Measures which also includes a great number of other formations, including a variety of so called Millstone Grits. As I guessed previously the two known ‘deepest’ (or highest outcropping) worked coal seams around the area of South Yorkshire where I live are the Halifax seam group, however, it appears that slightly North and in the West Yorkshire Pennine edges there are at least two other seams that have been worked below the Halifax set, the Pot Clay and Upper Eltham seams (which is also found in East Lancashire Pennine edge and is known as the Holcombe Brook Coal), now this is where it seems a bit confusing all these seams appear to be the final (deepest) measures and sit above variously named grit formations, which would appear to be base of all coal measures, at least in Yorkshire. Plenty of info within the following links, for anyone with a day or two to spare; www.yorksgeolsoc.org.uk/BGS-Memoirs/B01550.pdfwww.aditnow.co.uk/documents/Personal-Album-8946/Baines-Yorkshire-up-to-1870.pdfnora.nerc.ac.uk/3721/1/HWR_Chatsworth_paper_vMarch08_unformatted.pdf Here's another old book you can download on the subject free...The Geology of Parts of Nottinghamshire And Derbyshire
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Post by tygwyn on Feb 14, 2014 14:43:43 GMT -5
Have had a look at them BGS boreholes,but cannot find anything fairly recent with any depth, Are there any Selby boreholes available to see,or a section of a BGS map of the Selby area,or any Yorkshire area for that matter to see the generalized vertical sections?
Apparently our Farewell Rock lies above the Millstone Grit,so i`m wondering if you have a Farewell Rock up North,or if it is called a different name.
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Post by Clive on Feb 14, 2014 15:07:45 GMT -5
Not having any knowledge of geology and therefore not recognising or understanding much of the terminology,I’ve had a “dig” around as best I could and although there seems to be a bit of confusion here and there (especially here with me), it would seem to be that all (or certainly all those that have been accessed) coal seams are inclusive of what is generally termed the Millstone Grit Measures which also includes a great number of other formations, including a variety of so called Millstone Grits. As I guessed previously the two known ‘deepest’ (or highest outcropping) worked coal seams around the area of South Yorkshire where I live are the Halifax seam group, however, it appears that slightly North and in the West Yorkshire Pennine edges there are at least two other seams that have been worked below the Halifax set, the Pot Clay and Upper Eltham seams (which is also found in East Lancashire Pennine edge and is known as the Holcombe Brook Coal), now this is where it seems a bit confusing all these seams appear to be the final (deepest) measures and sit above variously named grit formations, which would appear to be base of all coal measures, at least in Yorkshire. Plenty of info within the following links, for anyone with a day or two to spare; www.yorksgeolsoc.org.uk/BGS-Memoirs/B01550.pdfwww.aditnow.co.uk/documents/Personal-Album-8946/Baines-Yorkshire-up-to-1870.pdfnora.nerc.ac.uk/3721/1/HWR_Chatsworth_paper_vMarch08_unformatted.pdf Here's another old book you can download on the subject free...The Geology of Parts of Nottinghamshire And DerbyshireThe Holcome brook was worked over owd betts, between edenfield and Rochdale, I think it was also worked towards Bury as well John. However there is a coal below, the Brooks Bottom. I belive this to be the base coal. The coaqls around the Rossendale anticline were within the lower coal measures. Up here in east cumberland, the 'true coals' of lambley through to plenmellor colrolate with the middle coal measures of Durham, I forget the exact corrolation, but the Marshall Green is one of the durham coals represented around coanwood. The limestone coals are well below, without digging out the maps i couldnt say exactly. However, the little limestone, as woprked at South tyne colliery' crops about a mile from the roman wall and dips at 1 in 6 southish. The true coals are found right on the top of plenmellor, were they were open cast about 20 years ago. The only coals between are the Kella coals, only worked to a small extent at crop At hartleyburn the whin dyke throws the limestone coals up to the horizon of the true coals, although the limestone coals are turned to anthracite at this point. If you can get hold of Clogs on the welsh site he could be more specific than me. I always used to think that the Brooks bottom coal was the base coal.
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Post by Clive on Feb 14, 2014 15:21:20 GMT -5
Coal seams mined up north below Millstone Grit Depends what you mean as up north, if up north is beyond Yorkshire the answer is yes. In the far west of County Durham and in Northumberland the Little Limestone coal was/is worked. In fact a private drift mine in Alston still works the seam when the town needs coal, it is sometimes sold along with imported coal. The Little Limestone coal is either Anthracite or semi Anthracite. Also in the far southern part of the Durham coalfield North Tees colliery which closed in 1966 worked the Winston seam which was below the Millstone Grit. Also Shillbottle and Whittle collieries in North Norththumberland worked the Shillbottle coal about 2ft to 3ft thick until closure in 1987 indeed Whittle used an Eichoff shearer on a few 240yd faces until the coal dropped below 28inches. At its peak Whittle colliery produced over 700,000 ton a year! Further north again Scremeston/Blackhill colliery just south of the border near Berwick worked a limestone coal until 1965. Across the border in Scotland the majority of collieries worked Limestone series coal which was below the Millstone Grit. One of the few new collieries to work coal in the 'True Measures' ie above the Millstone Grit was Killoch in Ayshire. No doubt there would be Limestone coals below the Millstone Grit in both Notts and Yorkshire but maybe not worked probaly owing to thickness. depends on where abouts you are garry as to whether its anthracite or freeburning. To the east and north of the whin dyke they are classed as semi anthracite, though it is anrthracite though different to the welsh stuff. It is very dull gray looking, cone in cone formation. At the pits to the west, Tows bank, you could get the coal to burn on an open fire. In the free burning pits the little limestone coal is very changable, there are in fact 3 coals in the syclothithm thingy. and it differs which one is worked. At Blenkinsopp all 3 came together imediatly below the limestone. When the Byron went through the whin dyke, the coals either side of the dyke were anthracite, also the same happned in roachburn, down the jubilee district the coal got up to 6' and was anthracite, they couldn't sell the stuff. At some pits like the gairs, the coal was of dubious quality where as at the howard it was widly sought after as a house coal....again clogs will know more about it
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Post by tygwyn on Feb 17, 2014 18:23:33 GMT -5
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Post by garryo on Feb 18, 2014 9:28:13 GMT -5
Clive
An Interesting part of the Durham, Northumberland and part of Cumbria is the area containing the Tyne Valley. Here you have adjacent areas working both the Limestone coals and the True coal measures. Owing to faults and dykes former collieries close to each other could be working both or either sequence. The area I refer to is the area around Lambley where Lambley worked the Well syke, High Main and Low Main which correlate to some of the seams in the main coalfield ie Hutton coals and a few miles away at Hallbank gate you had Naworth Collieries working the Well Syke, Craig Nook, Low Main and the Little Limestone at their Midgeholme, Gapshields and Prior Drifts.
Then of course there was Bardon Mill and Plennmeller working the Little Limestone.
Of interest Plennmeller colliery had one of the earliest friction (Koepe)winders in the UK about 1926ish.
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Post by Clive on Feb 21, 2014 11:35:13 GMT -5
Clive An Interesting part of the Durham, Northumberland and part of Cumbria is the area containing the Tyne Valley. Here you have adjacent areas working both the Limestone coals and the True coal measures. Owing to faults and dykes former collieries close to each other could be working both or either sequence. The area I refer to is the area around Lambley where Lambley worked the Well syke, High Main and Low Main which correlate to some of the seams in the main coalfield ie Hutton coals and a few miles away at Hallbank gate you had Naworth Collieries working the Well Syke, Craig Nook, Low Main and the Little Limestone at their Midgeholme, Gapshields and Prior Drifts. Then of course there was Bardon Mill and Plennmeller working the Little Limestone. Of interest Plennmeller colliery had one of the earliest friction (Koepe)winders in the UK about 1926ish. The true coals terminated at the bottom of prior bank and didn't go as far as Hallbank gate. Minthill was the most west of the pits in the true coals, apart from some very old shafts dating from the 1600's. There was a narrow strip that ran roughly from the bottom of prior bank, to plenmellor. The pits in the true coals; minthill,prior,midgeholme, hartleyburn,lambley (old and new) coanwood (and all the private mines reopening parts of coanwood) and then plenmellor (blackshield Bog)The coal was again faulted out but was worked again in a small patch at Langley and carts bog. most of the langley pit is still standing and was used to film cathrine cooksons the dewlling place. The other plenmellor colliery was in haltwhistle, near the village of that name, now the site of the bottle factory. It was sunk just prior to 1914. Aparently it was the first concreate reinforced shaft in the country and one of the first, if not the first keope winders in the uk. Trouble was it was a german sinking team also, the had to freeze the ground, and there was trouble as the war kicked off. sadly the pit didn't survive the 26 strike, or just about did. I knew a bloke about 15 years ago who worked in it, i lost touch and i should imagine he has died now. He worked in a few around there; Barcambe and Henshaw (fore runner to barden mill)
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Post by merlin on Apr 15, 2015 13:51:33 GMT -5
has anybody any knowledge about the north wales coalfeald i beleaved it went under the cheshire plain al the way to the north staffs coalfield
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Post by John on Apr 15, 2015 16:41:10 GMT -5
has anybody any knowledge about the north wales coalfeald i beleaved it went under the cheshire plain al the way to the north staffs coalfield I think the North Wales coalfield is an extension of the Lancashire coalfield.
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Post by bulwellbrian on Apr 16, 2015 9:46:41 GMT -5
I don't think the North Wales coalfield is a continuation of the Lancashire field. I think there were two main area of coal, one in Flintshire and one around Wrexham.
The NCB collieries included, Point of Ayr, Gresford, Bersham, Llay Main, Hafod and Ifton. There were many more small collieries in the past.
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Post by John on Apr 16, 2015 10:39:44 GMT -5
I don't think the North Wales coalfield is a continuation of the Lancashire field. I think there were two main area of coal, one in Flintshire and one around Wrexham. The NCB collieries included, Point of Ayr, Gresford, Bersham, Llay Main, Hafod and Ifton. There were many more small collieries in the past. So aren't they continuation of the seams on the opposite side of the Mersey???
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Post by bulwellbrian on Apr 16, 2015 13:13:22 GMT -5
There is no continuous coalfield between Lancashire & North Wales, I don't think there was much coal in the Wirral or under Liverpool. Point of Ayr did work under the Dee estuary.
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Post by John on Apr 16, 2015 14:04:35 GMT -5
There is no continuous coalfield between Lancashire & North Wales, I don't think there was much coal in the Wirral or under Liverpool. Point of Ayr did work under the Dee estuary. I see now I've checked the borehole logs, I thought the Lancs seams ran deep towards the Irish Sea, but south west of Manchester it's evaporates, which predate coal seams..The salt mines of Cheshire..
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Post by dazbt on Apr 16, 2015 15:19:04 GMT -5
There is no continuous coalfield between Lancashire & North Wales, I don't think there was much coal in the Wirral or under Liverpool. Point of Ayr did work under the Dee estuary. My G.G.Grandfather might well have been disappointed to learn that there wasn't much coal in the Wirral, him having spent a great deal of his life sinking coalmine shafts there, his last attempt being at Neston, sad times, or, then again maybe not ! .
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Post by John on Apr 16, 2015 15:46:52 GMT -5
There is no continuous coalfield between Lancashire & North Wales, I don't think there was much coal in the Wirral or under Liverpool. Point of Ayr did work under the Dee estuary. My G.G.Grandfather might well have been disappointed to learn that there wasn't much coal in the Wirral, him having spent a great deal of his life sinking coalmine shafts there, his last attempt being at Neston, sad times, or, then again maybe not ! . Neston Colliery No1 shaft 149.9M deep.
Wirrall Colliery No2 shaft at 139.29M Coal 2 yards 0' 1" @ 31 yards 1' 0"....several seams 2ft or thinner, Six Foot seam 2 yards 0' 0" @ 88 yards 0' 4".... various seams....Five Foot seam 1 yard 2' 0" @ 113 yards 2' 7" Seven Foot seam 2 yards 1' 6" @ 130 yards 1' 1".
No dates on the shaft sinking record, but nice thick seams.
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