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Post by shellie402 on Sept 28, 2010 9:58:25 GMT -5
Hi there i am hoping that somone can answer a question for m. My dad was a deputy and i have his original walking stick i would like to ask if anyone knows what used to be in the top of the stick there is a circular area that looks like it used to have something there. and does anyone know where i can get what ever it was that was these again?
thanks in advance
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Post by philipford734 on Sept 28, 2010 10:16:37 GMT -5
I have seen a few Deputy's walking sticks like you describe. Some would mount a coin on the top of there stick, farthings and three penny bits where favorites. A farthing was the same size as a new penny.
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Post by erichall on Sept 28, 2010 10:46:34 GMT -5
On a proper Deputy's stick, the bottom should have a copper ferule, and on the bulbous 'handle' (although it is one complete piece of wood) you should find what appears to be the Centring mark as if it was going onto a lathe. This is to enable the Deputy to place his oil lamp handle in this as he lifts it into a cavity to test for gas.
It was never a good way of testing because you could not see the flame, and eventually gave way to a small plastic fitment which was actually a valve that fitted a rubber bulb. The bulb would be sqeezed to expel the air and the bulb then fitted to the attachement. A length of string could then be attached to the valve, the whole was fitted over the ferule end of the string, and lifted into the roof/cavity. When the string was pulled the valvewould reflate, taking in a sample of the gas. The whole was then lowered, the valve removed, and the sample from the bulb would then be aspirated through the Garforth Type G6 oil lamp. the amount of methane could then be read in the usual way, except that the 'caps' above the flame varied from the old Type 6, The old Type 6 oil lamp would only read up to 5% at which point the flame started to spiral into the bonnet. the Garforth meant that higher percentages could be safely tested.
The Deputy's sick was a multi-purpose piece of equipment. It served not only as a 'Badge of Office', it was a tape in that it was exactly 1 yard long (hence the term in places of a Deputy's Yardstick). it's copper ferule and the bulbous end could be used for stemming short holes, especially for 'relieving holes' in the case of a misfire, and any Deputy of experience could use it to rap the roof to sound for unsafe roof. It was often a bone of contention with the average miner, that the Deputy, by carrying his stick, was showing off.
When I first started Shotfiring/Deputying, on firing a round of shots in a stablehole, I had gone to check they had all fired, when the Manager came by. His first question - where was my oil lamp? (hung in the gate-shame on me) and then where was my yardstick. I was then given a lecture on the basic tenets of Deputying in that the Oil Lamp should be ON MY PERSON AT ALL TIMES, and then lectured on the reasons for carrying a Deputy's stick, and its uses. I was informed that, on reaching the surface I was to proceed to the stores, obtain my stick, and NEVER LET ME SEE YOU WITHOUT IT AGAIN!
Most new sticks were like shunting poles, and so the next port-of-call was the joiners, to have the stick turned to a thinner diameter. I carried that self-same stick through 10 collieries in 2 Divisions, and only parted with it to a friend who did not work in the mines but had been given a HuWood Presentation Stick. Instead of the bulbous end, this was replaced by a copper geologist's hammer, which performed all the same functions. I still have my stick and my Garforth Lamp despite having to retire through ill health some 35 years ago. The stick last went underground with me in May 2010, when my son and daughter-in-law took my wife and I on a visit to the National Mining Museum at Caphouse Colliery in Yorkshire.
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Post by shellie402 on Sept 28, 2010 11:44:33 GMT -5
Thank you very much for your amazing interesting story !! the stick my dad had sounds exactly what you have described and has the bit in the top as described! i know it was the original one he had when he worked as it still has the original brass plate thing with his work number and name on it which matches the miners lamp i also have that belonged to him. He doesnt realise i still have these as he got rid of most of it when my mum died and he moved to a smaller house and i was hoping to clean them and give them back to him.
I have managed to find a Nottingham NUM badge thing that would fit perfectly onto it, but didnt want to do anything till i knew if it was ment to have anything or not.
Thank you again you have been great and it was wonderfull hearing your memories!
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Post by John on Sept 28, 2010 11:56:48 GMT -5
The only folks I saw carrying a "Deputies" yard stick were the Manager and Under Manager and Senior Overmen. Never saw anything on the tops of their sticks, just turned smooth.
I think the reason the face Deputy's and Overmen never carried them was they hated crawling through low faces with extra items.
They all carried a tape to measure with, had a long tape they kept in a box at the gate ends to measure face advance daily with etc.
Eric, the Deputy, Overman and shotfirers used to be in the habit of leaving their lamps at the gatend "switch" unless using them for testing or inspections. Usually with the sword still in them!!
Day shift if the Manager or UM came around, they would pull the swords out and walk off with them and on reaching the surface lamproom would instruct the head lampman to phone him at the end of the shift and notify him who returned lamps without swords in them!!
Needless to say the Manager or UM would have to call him!! No lamps were returned to the lamproom Mr so and so without re lighting swords.!!
They all had a few spare swords. ;D
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Post by shellie402 on Sept 28, 2010 12:20:56 GMT -5
thanks for that info its amazing how interesting these stories are! i originally only came on to ask this question now i find im looking round the site after my interest has risen !! i was still quite young when my dad retired after over 30 years so being a teen and probably more to the point a girl wasnt that interested in what he did down there but like many others he is now feeling the effects of many years down there so thought it would be nice to see if i can clean his stick and lamp up as a surprise. What i do remember from all those years ago he had something to do with setting dynamite (but thats just a vague memory! and that he was a deputy i remember something about nacods or something like that being mentions, ive now started looking more into this thanks to this site and am looking for info about his old pit and maybe for some memorablilia i can get for him.
Thanks again you have all been great !!
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Post by John on Sept 28, 2010 14:12:12 GMT -5
NACODS was the under officials union, National Association of Colliery Overmen, Deputy's and Shotfirers.
If he was a Deputy, he'd more than likely have started "up the ladder" from being a shotfirer, although Deputy's were also allowed to fire rounds of shots too.
What pit did he work at and what part of the country, I ask that as I know of three Clifton Collieries, one that was in Nottingham, one in Lancashire and one in the north east.
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Post by shellie402 on Sept 28, 2010 14:38:54 GMT -5
Hi there he was at Babbington Nottingham for most of his life but also must have worked mansfield way at some stage because i was born there!
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Post by John on Sept 28, 2010 14:58:29 GMT -5
Hi there he was at Babbington Nottingham for most of his life but also must have worked mansfield way at some stage because i was born there! Well here's some information on my website about Babbington, the site is being rebuilt from the ground up, so I may have more info to add when I start replacing files this coming winter. coalcollieryandmining.110mb.com/colly05.html |
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Post by erichall on Sept 29, 2010 8:58:11 GMT -5
NACODS was the under officials union, National Association of Colliery Overmen, Deputy's and Shotfirers.
If he was a Deputy, he'd more than likely have started "up the ladder" from being a shotfirer, although Deputy's were also allowed to fire rounds of shots too.
What pit did he work at and what part of the country, I ask that as I know of three Clifton Collieries, one that was in Nottingham, one in Lancashire and one in the north east. Quit right, John, NACODS was the official 'Deputies' union, and to climb the ladder, so to speak, you progressed upwards as Shotfirer, Deputy Grade II, Deputy GradeI, Overman Grade II and Overman GradeI, all of whom were allowed to fire shots, although Overmendid not carry detanators. The Maximun a Deputy of a District was allowed to carry, varied from Colliery to Colliery and Area to Area. The 'official' number a District Deputy was allowed to carry was 10, although this could be varied by the Manager of the Mine. When using instantaneous Dets it was normally 10 but for some reason, the Managers at Rockingham Colliery in the South Barnsley Area had specified this at 20. The Shotfirer's maximum was 40. These figures were altered whenevr development was involved, and some of our development deputies carried 40 instantaneous dets, since they were not on production and were not accompanied by a shotfirer. The ultimate criteria was the time available to the deputy in the shift to fire shots (Was he firing single shots or large rounds?) and still have time to complete his statutory inspections. Delay Dets were a different matter, since these were usually fired in larger rounds and not so many rounds per shift. Overmen, whilst not usually carrying dets were still authorised to carry them for use in emergency. I have heard of the old trick of leaving the striker in the lamp (a sackable offence, incidently) I also remember my first weekend shift. A Sunday evening when I had to inspect a Retained Training face, then travel some 2 miles to a production face, which I had to 'pre-shift' and to re-admit power. Whilst waiting to go underground, I was asked 'who's doing 101's preshift?' when my answer was that it was me, the electician said for me to wait while he furnished me with a 'Baldwin' key. This was to remove the earth-leakage cover and reset the switch, and should only be done by an electrician. One of the panels had a habit of not resetting on restoration of power, but the alec didn't want the bother of being called 2 miles underground just to reset a trip. he said as he gave it me that I must not forget it. I didn't tell him that I already had one in my pocket from my days training with electricians. Incidently, contrary to most helld beliefs, the Coal Board did NOT operate a closed shop, and for much of my training I was not a member of a union, and having completed my training as a Student Apprentice, I became elegible for the British Association of Colliery Managers, which joined and as I did not intend becoming a permanent Shotfirer/deputy, the NACODS accepted. |
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Post by erichall on Sept 29, 2010 9:02:28 GMT -5
Incidently, john,
How many of our ex NACODS members, and some surveyors and Senior Officials, that is people who carried re-lighter oil lamps, realise that they had, on being given authorisation to carry a relighter lamp, to be authorised to carry an electric lamp (the Cap Lamp) at the same time?
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Post by John on Sept 29, 2010 10:05:29 GMT -5
I know closed shops were removed by legislation years later Eric, but at the time I was signed up, I was instructed by the NCB that i must be prepared to join the NUM or no apprenticeship. This was made clear during our first year when we we were taught the history of the trade unionism within the industry. This was 1964.
Even as late as 1975 when I worked for an ICI subsidiary, Cleveland Potash, it was ICI's policy for everyone taken on to join their respective union..
I recall at my first pit, none of the EL covers were "locked" unless we expected an Inspectors visit.
Cotgrave was different when we got there in 68, everything was by the book! The electrician could and would be reported if he failed to keep the EL covers "locked on equipment.
My first day underground at Cotgrave, I pulled a stick of Wrigleys chewing gum out and proceeded to remove the aluminium foil, GOD!!!! You'd have thought I'd just took a ciggie out and lit it up!!!!! I soon discovered the Managers rule regarding aluminium foil, I was lucky not to have been fined.
Oddly enough, snuff came in those aluminium tins back then and nothing was ever said about those!!!!
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Post by John on Sept 29, 2010 10:06:56 GMT -5
Incidently, john, How many of our ex NACODS members, and some surveyors and Senior Officials, that is people who carried re-lighter oil lamps, realise that they had, on being given authorisation to carry a relighter lamp, to be authorised to carry an electric lamp (the Cap Lamp) at the same time? Never gave caplamps a thought Eric other than mine was working and in a safe condition before proceeding to bank. |
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Post by erichall on Sept 30, 2010 11:05:29 GMT -5
This was a false impression. Most people believed that NCB operated a 'closed shop' but this was NOT the case. You would have been 'encouraged' to join the Union, I don't doubt, and this gave the impression that it was. However, when I started as a Student Apprentice in 1958, it was explained to me,and in fact, I believe that even then it was illegal for an articled Apprentice to join a union, although this was very rarely observed, and most apprentices did join NUM.
In my own case, the first union I joined, was NACODS and this was after I had completed my apprenticeship and been engaged as a Deputy Grade 2, a device which enabled the manager, or his representative (the Official Superior to the Deputy ie Overman) to utilise my services as a deputy if the need arose.
I must apologise, for one piece of incorrect info that I gave you, I was entitled to join BACM but joined NACODS until I became Backshift Undermanager. I even,despite moving areas and divisions, kept my Coal Allowance at the rate for NACODS (Yorks.Area) up to my leaving because this was a better allowance than the BACM in N.Derbys.
On the question of lamp strikers, almost all the pits I worked at only issued from the Lamp Room ready lit Relighter lamps WITHOUT STRIKERS. Officials were issued with a Strker, and a shotfiring pricker/Battery key on their signing on, and removing left-in strikers was a favourite pastime of Training/Safety Officers, Undermanagers etc.
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Post by John on Sept 30, 2010 11:47:53 GMT -5
This was a false impression. Most people believed that NCB operated a 'closed shop' but this was NOT the case. You would have been 'encouraged' to join the Union, I don't doubt, and this gave the impression that it was. However, when I started as a Student Apprentice in 1958, it was explained to me,and in fact, I believe that even then it was illegal for an articled Apprentice to join a union, although this was very rarely observed, and most apprentices did join NUM. In my own case, the first union I joined, was NACODS and this was after I had completed my apprenticeship and been engaged as a Deputy Grade 2, a device which enabled the manager, or his representative (the Official Superior to the Deputy ie Overman) to utilise my services as a deputy if the need arose. I must apologise, for one piece of incorrect info that I gave you, I was entitled to join BACM but joined NACODS until I became Backshift Undermanager. I even,despite moving areas and divisions, kept my Coal Allowance at the rate for NACODS (Yorks.Area) up to my leaving because this was a better allowance than the BACM in N.Derbys. On the question of lamp strikers, almost all the pits I worked at only issued from the Lamp Room ready lit Relighter lamps WITHOUT STRIKERS. Officials were issued with a Strker, and a shotfiring pricker/Battery key on their signing on, and removing left-in strikers was a favourite pastime of Training/Safety Officers, Undermanagers etc. A lot of things went by the board at my first pit, was a very old colliery, pretty safe, very rare to see methane, and not many accidents. Many rules were "bent" as happened during those times at the older pits. Was a bit of a shock to the system when I was transferred to Cotgrave. Many things I took for granted could get one fined and or sacked at that pit back then. It was the newest of the NCB pits in Nottinghamshire. It had major problems in the deep soft seam with bad floors, terrible lift. One weekend part of the upcast shaft broke open pouring millions of gallons of water into the pit. The shaft went through anhydrite and gypsum beds, of course water reacted with those to form sulphuric acid which corroded the concrete shaft lining causing it to fail. |
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Post by thegulo on Nov 15, 2013 9:17:50 GMT -5
I don't have too much knowledge on this specific type of cane, but you can try calling . These guys can get anything.
NO COMMERCIAL ADVERTISING IS PERMITTED UNDER PROBOARDS T&C'S, THE LINK HAS BEEN REMOVED AND YOU WILL BE BANNED IF YOU PERSIST IN ADVERTISING!
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Post by John on Nov 15, 2013 14:09:08 GMT -5
Just to stress, we are not allowed to advertise, this is a free hosted site and the hosts business is advertising.
The sticks in question were used to tap the roof to check for good/bad roof, they were exactly one yard long, hence a yard stick. They had small brass tacks nailed in them at six inch intervals, usually the stick would have been turned from a hard wood like beech or oak, it also had a hole drilled through it to allow the mine official to hang his safety lamp from to test for gas in high roof spaces.
Anyone wanting information, ie the url of the site, please use the private message system of the site...Thanks.
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Post by gadge on Nov 16, 2013 17:40:34 GMT -5
Incidently, john, How many of our ex NACODS members, and some surveyors and Senior Officials, that is people who carried re-lighter oil lamps, realise that they had, on being given authorisation to carry a relighter lamp, to be authorised to carry an electric lamp (the Cap Lamp) at the same time? Yes I remember at the time of my deputies training being told that the flame safety lamp was the officials working lamp and the battery cap lamp was secondary to it As for other uses for the stick ,one was for poking over the top of the packs at the gateside to see that the rippers had packed tightly to the roof ,Or if you did,nt feel like walking a 1000 yds up an old roadway to inspect a d6 mono pump you could place your stick at a pipe joint ,put the other end at your ear and hear the passage of water in the pipe ( so I was told !!!) |
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Post by gadge on Nov 16, 2013 17:40:47 GMT -5
Incidently, john, How many of our ex NACODS members, and some surveyors and Senior Officials, that is people who carried re-lighter oil lamps, realise that they had, on being given authorisation to carry a relighter lamp, to be authorised to carry an electric lamp (the Cap Lamp) at the same time? Yes I remember at the time of my deputies training being told that the flame safety lamp was the officials working lamp and the battery cap lamp was secondary to it As for other uses for the stick ,one was for poking over the top of the packs at the gateside to see that the rippers had packed tightly to the roof ,Or if you did,nt feel like walking a 1000 yds up an old roadway to inspect a d6 mono pump you could place your stick at a pipe joint ,put the other end at your ear and hear the passage of water in the pipe ( so I was told !!!) |
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Post by quimbyj1745 on Oct 6, 2014 11:03:37 GMT -5
I was told about the manager at Florence colliery who was in dispute with his deputys in the late 1950s. The union officials were pressing the manager to issue sticks to all officials and he was resisting. After yet another meeting the production manager arrived and he asked what the trouble was about. The production manager said that it was not worth the bad feeling generated and told the manager to think again. Next day the union officials were called to a meeting to find the storekeeper, carpenter and painter were already there. the manager said to the union men that he had had second thoughts and turning to the storekeeper, order 200 sticks, to the carpenter, I want you to put brass studs at 1 foot intervals and the length from ferrule to first foot mark, studs at 1 inch intervals so that the sticks can be used for measuring. to the painter he said "then paint the sticks white" |
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Post by John on Oct 6, 2014 11:48:48 GMT -5
I was told about the manager at Florence colliery who was in dispute with his deputys in the late 1950s. The union officials were pressing the manager to issue sticks to all officials and he was resisting. After yet another meeting the production manager arrived and he asked what the trouble was about. The production manager said that it was not worth the bad feeling generated and told the manager to think again. Next day the union officials were called to a meeting to find the storekeeper, carpenter and painter were already there. the manager said to the union men that he had had second thoughts and turning to the storekeeper, order 200 sticks, to the carpenter, I want you to put brass studs at 1 foot intervals and the length from ferrule to first foot mark, studs at 1 inch intervals so that the sticks can be used for measuring. to the painter he said "then paint the sticks white" |
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Post by John on Oct 6, 2014 12:12:18 GMT -5
Eric, reading back and regarding E/L covers, you did realize under the M&Q Act it was illegal to close a circuit onto a fault?? Hence the reason to keep E/L reset/test covers locked. With the old Core balance and solidly earthed neutrals on the secondary side of transformers, that was OK, but on the free neutral, multi point earthing it was a pain in the butt. So we were allowed to reset without testing up to the point of a GEB being locket out on E/L, aka being the box with the fault on it's circuit.
No the main drawback to not being able to "close onto a fault" is the HV system, where it trips right back to the surface breakers. Then having to trace the fault....Yeah right!! We'd isolate every HV circuit underground, then start closing starting from the surface breakers..Eventually, the fault would be tracked down.
I think the Deputy's were crapping themselves while we carried out the fault finding by this means, always a risk of igniting coal dust.
Ironically, when I worked in Oz, the Coal Mines Regulation Act, allowed us to reset an E/L and allowed one closing on a suspected fault, a lot more sensible than the M&Q Act.
Plus down there, we only had flameproof equipment in hazardous areas, 300 feet of a working face, all other equipment was standard heavy duty industrial starters and transformers.
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Post by andyexplorer on Oct 13, 2014 10:05:30 GMT -5
Hi there he was at Babbington Nottingham for most of his life but also must have worked mansfield way at some stage because i was born there! Hi if your dad is starting to suffer from his years underground , he should get in touch with these guys The Nottingham NUM ex and retired miners association 1st floor Byrom house Commercial street Mansfield Nott's NG18 1EE Phone 01623 416 895 They are a really great set of guys who do all sorts of stuff with and for ex miners they share the floor of that building with O H Parsons @ partners solicitors who answer the phones and pass you through to the NUM i think parsons also deal with all ex miners work related issues they also have lots of social and educational types of events going on throughout the year that your dad might enjoy getting involved in or he might end up meeting old friends , you never know |
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Post by quimbyj1745 on Oct 17, 2014 10:45:22 GMT -5
Back in the early 60,s we mining students at stoke college of technology were invited to the annual dinner of the nacods north staffs annual dinner. The lord mayor of stoke
was the guest and in reply to the chairmans address he replied that it was a great pleasure to be invited to this annual dinner of the national association of colliey overmen, deputies and shoplifters. |
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Post by John on Oct 17, 2014 11:18:19 GMT -5
Just be thankful he didn't say "shirtlifters" Might have had a few irate shotfirers after his hide... 
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Post by kundyhole on Dec 15, 2014 8:05:15 GMT -5
I was told about the manager at Florence colliery who was in dispute with his deputys in the late 1950s. The union officials were pressing the manager to issue sticks to all officials and he was resisting. After yet another meeting the production manager arrived and he asked what the trouble was about. The production manager said that it was not worth the bad feeling generated and told the manager to think again. Next day the union officials were called to a meeting to find the storekeeper, carpenter and painter were already there. the manager said to the union men that he had had second thoughts and turning to the storekeeper, order 200 sticks, to the carpenter, I want you to put brass studs at 1 foot intervals and the length from ferrule to first foot mark, studs at 1 inch intervals so that the sticks can be used for measuring. to the painter he said "then paint the sticks white" quimbyj1745 would I be correct in thinking you are ex North Staffs ? Was the Manager in question Mr Smales or was it Mr Boote ? I know a lot of questions for a first post but I had family at florence , grandfather ,father and brother . Me I was at Hem Heath trying to keep out of thier way !!! many thanks Max |
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Post by quimbyj1745 on Dec 17, 2014 10:33:45 GMT -5
the manager was "dickie" boote.
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Post by quimbyj1745 on Dec 17, 2014 10:59:16 GMT -5
The managers name was "Dickie Boote"
I was at Stoke Tech from 1959 to 1962 but came from Warwickshire.
An other story about Dickie was from 1963 the very hard winter. He had the habit of going home for breakfast that meant he had to pass the landsale were all the allowance coal delivery men were in the cabin. These men were working to rule due to some dispute which meant that deliveries were well behind. He stopped and went into the cabin and kicked the stove over setting fire to the cabin. "If I have got no coal you b-----s are sitting here warming your a____s all day". The cabin was burnt to the ground which only served to escalate the dispute.
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Post by kundyhole on Dec 17, 2014 11:20:19 GMT -5
Oh dear !!
That would be my grandfather then .
My father is Gordon
I only ever met Dicky a few times before he died and my father never talks about him
I have his lamp and a gladstone bag full of his documents plus a box of old negatives of the reconstuction of florence and some stuff from snyed .
will be back in stoke over christmas to visit dad as he really is on his last legs
Regards
Max
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Post by smshogun on Dec 21, 2014 21:53:40 GMT -5
As regards the deputys sticks:
Earlier ones has the copper ferrule on one end and the hole for suspending an oil lamp. As roadways got bigger the sticks were too short for reaching up with an oil lamp and a later stick was developed. This was a plain stick with no ferrule or hole in the top as they were cheaper to produce and issue in numbers; many pits joiners shops did customise them for a number of senior officials; many managers and undermanages had brass name plates made and attached to them and a number were treated to a variety of oils, stains, or polishes for decorative purposes and some were customised and finished for retiring officials with long service.
I do a lot of off road driving and still have a deputies stick and its great for testing water depth or ground conditions and is a permanent fixture in the back of my 4X4 and has come in useful on many occasions. |
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