inbye
Shotfirer.
Posts: 114
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Post by inbye on Jan 18, 2009 7:07:12 GMT -5
Does anyone have experience of actually using these things?
When I started at Park Mill, as a school leaver in 1967, one of my jobs would be to push a tub full of these things, on the surface tramway, to the shed where the *Cardox Man* would go about re-filling them. As far as asking how they worked, I might as well have tried to join the Masons. They were approx 2'0" in length, maybe 1.1/2" diameter, with two claws or pawls at the bottom. Obviously, they went down a conventional shot hole, & when fired the claws came out & brought the coal down. But......how were they fired? I can't remember any kind of connector or hole for a det. How was it done?
This must have been at the very end of using these, as, by the time I worked underground, they were no longer used.
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Post by John on Jan 18, 2009 7:14:49 GMT -5
Been a long time since I heard of those!! I think they were either operated with compressed air or high pressure water.
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Post by John on Jan 18, 2009 7:24:35 GMT -5
Here yer go, just found out for you, they were charged with liquid carbon dioxide on the surface, and fired electrically.
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Post by John on Jan 18, 2009 8:03:10 GMT -5
I've added an entry in the "mining glossary" word for word from a mining dictionary on Cardox Shells.
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Post by coalfire on Jan 18, 2009 12:30:28 GMT -5
My dad worked for Island Creek Coal company back in the 70's and they used airdox shooting systems, kinda what you described but, it used compressed air instead of CO2. Dad said it was really dangerous stuff.
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Post by John on Jan 18, 2009 13:08:09 GMT -5
That's where I got mixed up Lannie, between Cardox and Airdox. Never saw either in use, just straight "safe" explosives in coal and firing the ripping lip up to Polar Ajax for solid rock road drivages. I recall reading the UK mining regs on the use of Cardox and Airdox many years ago. It appears both were used in very gassy seams, less risk of igniting methane, or so it was thought.
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ken
Trainee
Posts: 46
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Post by ken on Mar 11, 2010 2:29:40 GMT -5
I remember a system used on the training face at Easignton Colliery. An air compressor was used to supply very high pressure air to the coal face which was some distance away. The main pipe was at least an inch outside diameter and the bore about quarter of an inch. The compressor was a six cylinder boxer layout with the cylinders getting progressively smaller. The air container was about five inches in diameter and three feet long. It was connected by a flexible hose to the main pipeline. a rupturing disk was used somehow. The shotfirer bled the air into the gun and at a predetermined pressure the disk ruptured and the gun fired. It seemed to work OK. No fumes to breathe. My father -in-law was a shot-firer and used it. He was firing it in the stall and couldn't find it afterwards. Eventually it was found behind his firing place in the gate !!!!
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Post by dazbt on Mar 11, 2010 2:53:52 GMT -5
I remember a system used on the training face at Easignton Colliery. An air compressor was used to supply very high pressure air to the coal face which was some distance away. The main pipe was at least an inch outside diameter and the bore about quarter of an inch. The compressor was a six cylinder boxer layout with the cylinders getting progressively smaller. The air container was about five inches in diameter and three feet long. It was connected by a flexible hose to the main pipeline. a rupturing disk was used somehow. The shotfirer bled the air into the gun and at a predetermined pressure the disk ruptured and the gun fired. It seemed to work OK. No fumes to breathe. My father -in-law was a shot-firer and used it. He was firing it in the stall and couldn't find it afterwards. Eventually it was found behind his firing place in the gate !!!! Sounds as though that system might have been the forerunner of the Airdox and Cardox shells. I wonder if the method is still used anywhere, I know that water infusion under high pressure was still being used until fairly recently to 'soften up' hard coal in advance of some faces?
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Post by shaunmg on Nov 29, 2010 11:50:44 GMT -5
hello all. I'm a new member and first post. So i though I'd search cardox. low and behold I found it. I'm an ex miner of 22 years and now running a small company employing just 4 men including me. We clean out bunkers and silos, one of our methods is cardox, I'd say we are somewhat expert at it now. look up "pneumat cardox" on youtube and see us in action. Also cardox page of our website www.pneumat-europe.comI read through a few posts and see someone mention Boulby potash mine. I was down there a few years ago intoducing our Binwhip system. Wonder if they still use it to clear the underground bins
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Post by John on Nov 29, 2010 12:10:53 GMT -5
hello all. I'm a new member and first post. So i though I'd search cardox. low and behold I found it. I'm an ex miner of 22 years and now running a small company employing just 4 men including me. We clean out bunkers and silos, one of our methods is cardox, I'd say we are somewhat expert at it now. look up "pneumat cardox" on youtube and see us in action. Also cardox page of our website www.pneumat-europe.comI read through a few posts and see someone mention Boulby potash mine. I was down there a few years ago intoducing our Binwhip system. Wonder if they still use it to clear the underground bins I've no idea what they clear the main bins on my shift with now, during my time, left in 79, it was myself and the area mining superviser who cleared "hangups" in either of the bins with 14lb sledge hammers!! There must be hundreds of dents in the bin cones! During those early years we installed vibrators to the cones, failure! The only thing at that time that seemed to work was the 14lb hammer treatment. Sometimes took well over half an hour before it cleared the hangup. As C shift central electrician, I also replaced dozens of lengths of thin S/S wire ropes with weights for the bin product measuring units due to hangups ripping them out. They indicated to the control room mine clerk how full the bins were.
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Post by John on Nov 29, 2010 12:19:18 GMT -5
Here's the video the new member was on about.
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Post by coalfire on Jan 11, 2011 10:09:40 GMT -5
www.cardox.co.uk/mining.htm Found this link. They still make these. Was searching for alternatives to explosives since they are unavailable in the US without an ATF permit. Was wanting to dig my own coal.
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Post by John on Jan 11, 2011 11:44:05 GMT -5
www.cardox.co.uk/mining.htm Found this link. They still make these. Was searching for alternatives to explosives since they are unavailable in the US without an ATF permit. Was wanting to dig my own coal. I'll add that link to the main links section Lannie.
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Post by shaunmg on Jan 18, 2011 5:32:36 GMT -5
www.cardox.co.uk/mining.htm Found this link. They still make these. Was searching for alternatives to explosives since they are unavailable in the US without an ATF permit. Was wanting to dig my own coal. The supplier in the USA is www.pneumat.com its not cheap. One shell (or tube, as we call them these days) is over £1,500 each. Of course they are re-usable. But with gas, heaters and discs, all consumables, will cost you about £25 per shot. Then of course you need to charge them with the gas. a charging station will cost you around £8000, then there's your drilling and shotfiring equipment. We charge our customers for contract work, £890 per day plus £75 per shot. That might sound a lot but when you take into account our capital costs which include vehicles,then transport, wages and often overnight accommodation . The margins are not great
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Post by John on Jan 18, 2011 14:53:37 GMT -5
That's pretty expensive equipment!
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Post by philipford734 on Jan 27, 2011 12:56:16 GMT -5
I worked at Sutton Manor Colliery Lancashire for a time. There was a workshop there that repaired and filled fire extinguishers. It was formerly used for filling Cardrox and Hydrox shells. I never fired shots with them but some of the other officials had some good tails about them coming out of the shot hole when the wings did not open when fired, they said that they flew like rockets and could take out dowty props. Frightening. There where no fatalities at that pit but with reports like that I wonder if anybody was killed elsewhere.
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inbye
Shotfirer.
Posts: 114
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Post by inbye on Jan 27, 2011 14:12:17 GMT -5
I can also remember hearing of instances of these blowing out. Again, didn't hear of casualties.
Anyone know when Cardox shells came into use?
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Post by shropshirebloke on Jan 27, 2011 16:59:19 GMT -5
I can remember a story about a shotfirer being killed when one blew out and nailed him through his lower abdomen and spine to a steel plate, but I was told about it over thirty years ago and it was obviously ancient history even then. I can just remember it turning into a discussion about mercy-killing with morphia.
The system has been around for a surprisingly long time - my 1951 "Practical Coal Mining" describes Hydrox and Cardox as the only practical alternatives to explosives, especially in gassy seams, and talks about them in such a way as to suggest that they weren't exactly a new innovation even then.
I was interested to find out the difference between the two - Cardox used liquid CO2, evaporated by an electrical heater, and the shells had to be filled on the surface. Hydrox was a very similar system, but the gas was generated by electrically heating a chemical compound that came in powder form. Hydrox shells could be refilled underground. Both systems allowed rounds of up to six shells to be fired simultaneously from one shot firing battery (must have been one hell of a battery to provide the current for what were effectively miniature immersion heaters....).
There was another system (I'll try and dig out the details) that used water pressure, provided by a hand-operated force pump, to drive wedges out of the sides of a similarly shaped and sized "shell".
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inbye
Shotfirer.
Posts: 114
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Post by inbye on Jan 27, 2011 17:41:02 GMT -5
I can remember a story about a shotfirer being killed when one blew out and nailed him through his lower abdomen and spine to a steel plate, but I was told about it over thirty years ago and it was obviously ancient history even then. I can just remember it turning into a discussion about mercy-killing with morphia. The system has been around for a surprisingly long time - my 1951 "Practical Coal Mining" describes Hydrox and Cardox as the only practical alternatives to explosives, especially in gassy seams, and talks about them in such a way as to suggest that they weren't exactly a new innovation even then. I was interested to find out the difference between the two - Cardox used liquid CO2, evaporated by an electrical heater, and the shells had to be filled on the surface. Hydrox was a very similar system, but the gas was generated by electrically heating a chemical compound that came in powder form. Hydrox shells could be refilled underground. Both systems allowed rounds of up to six shells to be fired simultaneously from one shot firing battery (must have been one hell of a battery to provide the current for what were effectively miniature immersion heaters....). There was another system (I'll try and dig out the details) that used water pressure, provided by a hand-operated force pump, to drive wedges out of the sides of a similarly shaped and sized "shell". Yes, I have seen details of that system. If I remember right it was a hand operated hydraulic pump, connected to a shot hole sized cylinder. A number of plungers came out at right angles, to break down the coal......is that the one?
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Post by Sam from Kent on Jan 27, 2011 17:46:00 GMT -5
Didn't have any idea about Cardox shells, thought that powder was the only way, very interesting to find that there were other ways of doing it!!
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Post by shropshirebloke on Jan 27, 2011 17:53:37 GMT -5
Yes, I have seen details of that system. If I remember right it was a hand operated hydraulic pump, connected to a shot hole sized cylinder. A number of plungers came out at right angles, to break down the coal......is that the one? That's the one - "hydraulic burster" rings a bell, but I'll see what I can dig up.
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Post by shropshirebloke on Jan 27, 2011 18:11:54 GMT -5
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Post by shropshirebloke on Jan 27, 2011 19:03:39 GMT -5
A bit more Googling came up with this: www.dmm.org.uk/reports/3858-03.htm27 miners killed at Haig Colliery, Whitehaven, in 1931, as the result of an explosion connected with the firing of a Cardox shell. It makes you wonder just how long they've been around.
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Post by John on Jan 27, 2011 21:55:42 GMT -5
I can remember a story about a shotfirer being killed when one blew out and nailed him through his lower abdomen and spine to a steel plate, but I was told about it over thirty years ago and it was obviously ancient history even then. I can just remember it turning into a discussion about mercy-killing with morphia. The system has been around for a surprisingly long time - my 1951 "Practical Coal Mining" describes Hydrox and Cardox as the only practical alternatives to explosives, especially in gassy seams, and talks about them in such a way as to suggest that they weren't exactly a new innovation even then. I was interested to find out the difference between the two - Cardox used liquid CO2, evaporated by an electrical heater, and the shells had to be filled on the surface. Hydrox was a very similar system, but the gas was generated by electrically heating a chemical compound that came in powder form. Hydrox shells could be refilled underground. Both systems allowed rounds of up to six shells to be fired simultaneously from one shot firing battery (must have been one hell of a battery to provide the current for what were effectively miniature immersion heaters....). There was another system (I'll try and dig out the details) that used water pressure, provided by a hand-operated force pump, to drive wedges out of the sides of a similarly shaped and sized "shell". Wasn't that called water infusion?
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Post by shropshirebloke on Jan 28, 2011 6:41:59 GMT -5
Water infusion was a slightly different thing John - water was actually injected into the coal (or sometimes the overlieing strata), supposedly to reduce friability and obviously reduce dust levels.
The "hydraulic burster" was used to bring down the coal instead of conventional powder.
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Post by Sam from Kent on Jan 28, 2011 6:56:00 GMT -5
Yes I remember infusion on the old plough faces. Remember as a "green" apprentice being conned by an old miner. We stopped on overtime ( Don't know how we got away with this, I was only an apprentice doing my face training) to infuse the face. I carried the drill through the face and, ass instructed, drilled the holes at the distances I was told. George then followed up with the hose just putting the hose into each hole I had drilled and infusing the coal
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Post by John on Jan 28, 2011 8:52:42 GMT -5
Water infusion was a slightly different thing John - water was actually injected into the coal (or sometimes the overlieing strata), supposedly to reduce friability and obviously reduce dust levels. The "hydraulic burster" was used to bring down the coal instead of conventional powder. Not familiar with either, I'd heard of both years ago but never seen either used anywhere.
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Post by shaunmg on Feb 8, 2011 9:05:58 GMT -5
My information tells me Cardox was introduced in the 30s. the idea was you could use them where shotfiring could not be used Hydrox and cardox are one and the same. The discharge heads are interchangeable depending on what effect to want. 2 port discharge, 4 port discharge, or multi port discharge which are called hydrox discharge heads. I'm surprised to hear of cardox causing an explosion, a new one on me. The whole principle of their use in coal mines was because the are inert, using CO2 gas The principle is; a instant expansion of liquid CO2 into its gas form, resulting in an increase volume 600 times the liquid volume, which gives a heaving force of 40,000psi. The only way the shells are going to rocket out of the drill hole is it is not securely fastened down. Note the chains in our video shown earlier on the subject. You would no more fail to fasten the shell than you would fail stem a shot hole By the way Phil, I have heard of them flying out of holes but never saw one with wings. But I'm used to your tall stories from when I worked with you at Cronton Colliery Just joking mate how are you?
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Post by shropshirebloke on Feb 8, 2011 16:45:39 GMT -5
Cardox was certainly in use by 1931, which suggests that it was introduced somewhat earlier. Cardox and Hydrox may be just names for the same thing now, but certainly weren't 50+ years ago. They both worked on similar principles, but the Cardox was filled with liquid CO2, heated via an electrically-fired "igniter" - thus far the same. The Hydrox shell was filled with a mixture of sodium nitrite and ammonium chloride in powder form.
Cardox shells had a pair of "pawls" (the "wings" mentioned elsewhere in this thread?) in the head of the shell, which were forced out by the pressure of the expanding gas and were supposed to anchor the shell in place. Hydrox shells had backward-facing vents in the head, which were supposed to force the shell forward in the hole.
Nowhere in the literature I've read can I find any mention of the shells being retained by chains or any other method - the diagrams from that period only show a shotfiring cable attached to the shells, and they are mentioned in accident reports of the period as the likely cause of explosions as a result of sparks being struck when they've blown back out of the shothole and hit a suitably reactive surface.
Can I suggest that the Cardox and Hydrox that you are familiar with are a modern and very different product (and thankfully a damned sight safer....).
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Post by erichall on Mar 1, 2011 7:47:44 GMT -5
Cardox shells were simply long tubes of steel with a hole through at one end and a pair of pawls. Just inside the shell was fitted a 'bursting disc'. At the other end were slots for the insertion of two small copper contacts, about the same size as a conventiional detonator. The shells were filled on the surface with compressed CO2, after a new bursting disc had been inseted. The shells were transported into the mine and onto the face where the coal had been drilled by a conventional drill and bit, The diameter was around that of a conventional stick of powder. When ready for firing, the shotfirer would insert two of these Copper 'spades' which were attached to detonator wires. A round of shots would be coupled up then fired in the conventional way as if they were an ordinary round of 'powder' shots. The shotfiring battery would cause a spark inside the shell between the two copper spades. This would cause the CO2 to exand rapidly, thereby increasing the pressure and blowing out the bursting disc. This action of rapidly expanding the CO2 formed an 'explosion' of the gas , which would in turn force outwards the pawls, thereby causing the shell to 'cling' into the coal and keep the explosion at the back of the whole, in the same way that stemming would do with an ordinary powder shot. They were used to relatively good effect in gassy seams . The main fault lay in their constant re-use, when the seating of the bursting disc became a little worn, and the disc would hold rather than blow, and the gas would seep out rather than come out rapidly. The shell would then 'fizz' until the pressure was released instead of 'exploding'. Their use fell off in the early '60s with the improvement in explosives of the 'Equivalent to Sheathed' or EqS type of powder.
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