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Post by John on Aug 17, 2013 6:08:48 GMT -5
In South Wales,in the old days in the big mines and up to the last in Smallmines,the majority of roadway supports were either Flats if the roof was good,or Notched timber pairs. Was notching timber pairs ever used in other parts of the coalfield other than South Wales and the FOD,as i`ve never seen any photos showing this method anywhere else? I never saw Bord and Pillar during my apprenticeship with the NCB Jim... All roads were either steel arches, one had bolts, as a trial, and one section of a main road was backripped and had "cambered bars" notched into the sides of the walls at roof level, seemed to work too! There was some "herringbone" timbering in the road between the shafts that dated from the 1800's, real rare workmanship from the old pitman. There was even a section of the "Stonehead Drift" that had some thick timbers, about 18 inches thick, left in place when they backripped the drift in the 1950's, the timbers were from the early 1900's. What you mention could only be seen in old photos when B&P was the order of the day.
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Post by tygwyn on Aug 17, 2013 18:54:18 GMT -5
I`ve seen photo`s from the 40`s/50`s either Derbyshire or Yorkshire,were the roadway was timbered, But not the same V notching.
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Post by John on Nov 24, 2013 16:22:20 GMT -5
I see there are some misconceptions about B&P mining on another site, as far as I'm aware, there is no maximum depth in coal for working B&P....Both collieries I worked at in Oz worked with over 1000feet of cover and had no problems and the pillars weren't that large. Wongawilli worked standard B&P when I was there and a method known as the Wongawilli method of pillar extraction, I'll make a drawing of how it was worked when I have a few minutes and scan the drawing, but basically we drove two headings with cross cuts at right angles, one was a return, one was a belt road, to the end of the block of coal. At the end of the block, a road was driven at right angles to the left all the way through to a previously driven return air road, about 100 metres. Coming back outbye 12 metres, a parallel road was driven all the way through to the same return road. The inbye, first road was called a bleeder heading, it's job was to remove methane from what will be the goaf when the lifting off takes place. A third road is driven outbye of the second driven road about 12 metres outbye.
So what we have now are the two first roads, return and belt road, with three roads driven left at right angles to the return and belt roads. Pulling back a further 12 metres and driving a fourth road all the way to the main return, this road will be where the start of lifting the "fender" starts once driven all the way.. The CM pulls back around 12 metres and starts a right hand cut, and drives all the way through to road number three, then in a series of cuts as laid out in the Managers support rules, this 12 metre block of coal is lifted off with timber being set on the drivers side of the CM to warn him, Known as "soldier props". At the completion of the lift, all that is left is what is known as a "stook", a very thin pillar a couple of feet in size. CM pulls back and timbering starts and finishes with a line of "breaker props" these don't have lids on the top and are designed to cause a goaf break when weight starts to come on. A second lift starts about 12 metres back in the split exactly the same as the first, ditto all the way back to the belt road. The goaf is allowed to collapse, but without men or machinery in the split, once the goaf falls, lifting off resumes. If memory serves me right, we used to get in excess of 30 cars per shift, each car were Joy SC10's 10 tons with hungry boards gave us about 15 tons per car approx 450 tons per shift, times three shifts around 1350 tons of coal per day. I was on swing shift, so if we'd started a lift before shift end, night shift carried on coaling, and as we were the last shift on Friday night, it was up to the crew to decide whether they wanted overtime should we be in the position of finishing a lift an hour before the end of the shift...If not, the crew was sent to bring supplies from the store area and to make the face safe before knock off for the weekend.
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Post by tygwyn on Nov 25, 2013 9:01:30 GMT -5
You should have joined in on the debate,as it was not mentioned about a certain depth for Bord and Pillar,but a mention by a Mining Engineer that at greater depth there was need for larger pillars with his link to the Coalbrook disaster in South Africa in 1960,
As was mentioned by most,that it depended on the local geology and method of work,as was highlighted by the link to Maerdy Colliery were coal was worked off with CM`s,similar to your description of Wongawilli,but Maerdy worked this system in the 60`s.
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Post by John on Nov 25, 2013 9:29:15 GMT -5
You should have joined in on the debate,as it was not mentioned about a certain depth for Bord and Pillar,but a mention by a Mining Engineer that at greater depth there was need for larger pillars with his link to the Coalbrook disaster in South Africa in 1960, As was mentioned by most,that it depended on the local geology and method of work,as was highlighted by the link to Maerdy Colliery were coal was worked off with CM`s,similar to your description of Wongawilli,but Maerdy worked this system in the 60`s. From what I gather Jim, Wongawilli pioneered the lifting off of a fender many many years back, hence the name used "Wongawilli Method" There are several variations on the method, one is shown on the Wollongong University site where it's worked both sides of the drivage. I only worked on the single lift off of one fender. When we started lifting off, we only had one experienced man at the pit!! It had been many years since they had operated this method, so everyone was green to it except the one man. None of the Deputy's had worked it, so for a few shifts it was hair raising.. One of the things we soon got used to was the "heavy bumps" we experienced as the sand stone was yielding under tremendous pressures from above and below us.
We did have one mishap, all of us were lucky that shift, we had three more lifts to take off the fender, approx 36 metres, and the props were really cracking and banging, so it was decided to pull the miner back to safety and start timbering the intersection...As fast as props were being measured and cut, the roof was lowering. We left there in one quick dash and the whole intersection dropped behind us. That was the shift the miner was buried... The driver thought he'd left it in a safe spot, but the roof dropped farther than anyone expected...Just one of those things, the Mines Inspector was happy after he'd done his report, and that the Managers support rules had been adhered to..
I forget the size of pillars used at Wongawilli, but they weren't that big, and our cover was over 1000 feet with heavy sandstone. We also had old volcanic activity, "dykes" in that coalfield...
Now those were hard going!! One CM needed a complete head rebuild after cutting through a dyke, screwed all the bearings up..
I have a small section map, it's pretty dirty now, I'll have a go at scanning it today sometime, don't know how it will work out.
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Post by tygwyn on Nov 25, 2013 11:00:07 GMT -5
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Post by John on Nov 25, 2013 14:05:33 GMT -5
That looks odd Jim, no cut through's between bords..
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Post by John on Nov 25, 2013 14:22:59 GMT -5
Just a point I should raise, pillar failure, generally, but not always, caused by bad mining practices.
If you look up Crandall Canyon accident was caused by bad mining practices, if you recall, the owner stipulated they weren't lifting pillars many many times before the cameras. I think Obama must have studied under him, as he was telling bald faced lies every time he opened his mouth.
In essence, Crandall Canyon was a longwall operation before Murray's company bought the closed mine. The original owners left sizable "barrier pillars" between the last longwall and a section of the mine due to work pillar extraction. They decided it would be too hazardous to extract those pillars and closed the mine down..
In the mine plans, it showed the original operators left substantial barrier pillars between each longwall face to relieve stress on further longwalls.
Murray's company bought the mine and employed another company to access what coal was left and the best, not the safest, way to recover that coal...I say not the safest as they got their wrists slapped by the mining authorities.
Now lets be right, good mining practice should tell an operator NOT to extract barriers, they are left to prevent convergence. Extracting the main barrier pillars caused massive pillar failure outbye as shown in the TV news video actually happening.
Not sure of my facts here, but I think UK coal owners learned the hard way during the 17th and 18th centuries about why convergence takes place...If memory is right, a "mining overseer" in the North East came up with a plan to prevent convergence on a massive scale, something that happened pretty often back then... He proposed using "barrier pillars" between working districts, he soon proved the theory and it was adopted by other mining companies... Remember back then, most UK pits worked the Bord and Pillar method.
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Post by tygwyn on Nov 25, 2013 18:04:44 GMT -5
That looks odd Jim, no cut through's between bords.. How do you mean its odd? There are cross cuts through the pillars that are left between the roadways,and there were crosscuts through the pillars worked with the JCM`s Full 7ft taken,where the longwall bottom left only worked 4ft .
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Post by John on Nov 25, 2013 20:04:19 GMT -5
That looks odd Jim, no cut through's between bords.. How do you mean its odd? There are cross cuts through the pillars that are left between the roadways,and there were crosscuts through the pillars worked with the JCM`s Full 7ft taken,where the longwall bottom left only worked 4ft . I might have misunderstood Jim, then what I see are all longwalls???
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Post by tygwyn on Nov 26, 2013 8:36:39 GMT -5
How do you mean its odd? There are cross cuts through the pillars that are left between the roadways,and there were crosscuts through the pillars worked with the JCM`s Full 7ft taken,where the longwall bottom left only worked 4ft . I might have misunderstood Jim, then what I see are all longwalls??? Yes the finished article does look like it has been longwalled,notice the extraction %, From your explanation of Wongawilli,i would expect you to visualise this plan, Headings driven to the boundary with cross cuts,a JCM would drive through the pillar,knock out in other road,move up 15yds and drive back to first road and so on till boundary is reached,the area is not ready for pillar extraction,similar to Wongawilli using breaker timber in the waste as a support,if conditions get to hairy,one pulls out ,leaves a small pillar and carries on as before. It will be interesting to compare the plan of Wongawilli.
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Post by John on Nov 26, 2013 9:41:30 GMT -5
The section of the map I have for Wongawilli doesn't show the extraction, it was given to me when I first started working in the "Green" district, so was still developing the area prior to pillar extraction..
Don't ask I have no idea why the company used colours for district names, instead of numbers...
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Mick
Shotfirer.
Posts: 163
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Post by Mick on Nov 26, 2013 11:46:01 GMT -5
We had some herring boning in a old road way in the pit bottom at Gomersal that was used as a walking road upto deputy's office. Mick.
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Post by tygwyn on Nov 27, 2013 12:44:55 GMT -5
We had some herring boning in a old road way in the pit bottom at Gomersal that was used as a walking road upto deputy's office. Mick. When you say Herring boning Mick,would this be similar to a Christmas Tree pattern?driven with CM`s, As this was the system used at Unity before it closed,not very successful in their case.
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Post by John on Nov 27, 2013 13:42:35 GMT -5
I think Mick means roof timbering, the road behind the down cast shaft at Clifton Colliery was "herringbone timbered" True craftsmanship by miners of the late 1800's.
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Post by tygwyn on Nov 27, 2013 14:19:14 GMT -5
I think Mick means roof timbering, the road behind the down cast shaft at Clifton Colliery was "herringbone timbered" True craftsmanship by miners of the late 1800's. Not come across that name for Timbering before, Could you explain the pattern.
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Post by John on Nov 27, 2013 16:52:30 GMT -5
I think Mick means roof timbering, the road behind the down cast shaft at Clifton Colliery was "herringbone timbered" True craftsmanship by miners of the late 1800's. Not come across that name for Timbering before, Could you explain the pattern. I think it was a lost art Jim, the roof was hand cut like the inside of a house roof and a central spine of round timber went in the "vee cut" with timbers notched into it and the sides, the timbers were about 2-3 inches diameter and set about 8 to 10 inches apart if I recall. Looked like a herringbone, hence the name. I've only ever seen it once, and that was the example I saw between the shafts at Clifton in the 60's.
Basically the same technique of setting cambered steel bars into pockets in the sides, as weight comes on, it forces the bars or timbers into the sides tight and supports the roof.
Timbering became a lost art with the NCB due to steel taking it's place for roadway supports.
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Post by tygwyn on Nov 27, 2013 19:02:12 GMT -5
Seen photo`s of similar work in French Coalmine`s,but heavier timber than 2 to 3in,real workmanship.
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Post by John on Nov 28, 2013 7:07:49 GMT -5
You'd probably need thicker timbers to support roads away from the shaft pillar. There were roads above that pit bottom in the Deep Soft seam, worked in the late 1800's, one was broken into when they drove a surge bin just a little away from the shafts. I don't know what timbering it had, only a Deputys word of moth report the road was in perfect condition. All the old 1800 and early 1900 workings, Bord and Pillar, were to the north of the shafts and under part of the city in the Deep Soft and Deep Hard seams.
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Mick
Shotfirer.
Posts: 163
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Post by Mick on Nov 30, 2013 10:27:41 GMT -5
I think Mick means roof timbering, the road behind the down cast shaft at Clifton Colliery was "herringbone timbered" True craftsmanship by miners of the late 1800's. Not come across that name for Timbering before, Could you explain the pattern. That's it John but this road went for about 1,000 yard from the pit bottom,the timber used was pit props and the road was around 12ft wide by around 10ft wide . Mick.
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Post by John on Nov 30, 2013 15:50:42 GMT -5
Jim, I located that portion of map of Wongawilli, give me a day or two, I'll try and clean it up a tad, digitally remove a ton of coal from it...LOL
I recently upgraded to Win7, so have only just reloaded all my software into this machine, so will have a go at cleaning the scanned copy up, load it to Photobucket and link it with an explanation of what's what on it.
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Post by tygwyn on Nov 30, 2013 16:53:36 GMT -5
Excellent,be interested to see the method of work,
Seems like the administrators of Unity are looking for investors to the tune of 60 million to install a longwall face, I was sent an e-mail with the info,but cannot seem to link it,if you would like to see it,send me your e-mail and i`ll forward it on,and anyone else who`s interested do the same,unless you`ve got 60 million to thrown down a hole in the ground,lol.
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Post by dazbt on Jan 12, 2014 6:58:25 GMT -5
I think Mick means roof timbering, the road behind the down cast shaft at Clifton Colliery was "herringbone timbered" True craftsmanship by miners of the late 1800's. Not come across that name for Timbering before, Could you explain the pattern.
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Post by John on Jan 12, 2014 8:10:46 GMT -5
The herringbone I recall didn't have props Daz, just notched into the sides with the centre rib as above and thin timbers about four inches or so in diameter. That was along a road that joined the two shafts together..I'd imagine most of the old roads leading out the shaft pillar into the old workings were all herringbone timbered... But the above gives an example.
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Post by dazbt on Jan 12, 2014 9:06:41 GMT -5
The herringbone I recall didn't have props Daz, just notched into the sides with the centre rib as above and thin timbers about four inches or so in diameter. That was along a road that joined the two shafts together..I'd imagine most of the old roads leading out the shaft pillar into the old workings were all herringbone timbered... But the above gives an example. Perhaps the legless type would be from the "Pickled Herring" variety ....... ?
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Post by cortonwood on Jan 12, 2014 9:34:23 GMT -5
i think that style of timbering was called herringbone regardless of whether props(legs) were used or not.As far as i know it was just the roof support that gives it its name.The old instructors at manvers training centre made a point of showing us these to point out that we had got it easy. ,i then was in a development team setting 16x12's on stilts regularly doing 90m a week and even breaking a record by doing just shy of 110 meters,it was a piece of cake (wee wee!) carrying all that steel
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Post by John on Jan 12, 2014 9:52:39 GMT -5
i think that style of timbering was called herringbone regardless of whether props(legs) were used or not.As far as i know it was just the roof support that gives it its name.The old instructors at manvers training centre made a point of showing us these to point out that we had got it easy. ,i then was in a development team setting 16x12's on stilts regularly doing 90m a week and even breaking a record by doing just shy of 110 meters,it was a piece of cake (wee wee!) carrying all that steel Used to make me shudder seeing rippers carry a leg or crown, God, those things were heavy! They certainly earned their money.
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Post by cortonwood on Jan 12, 2014 10:22:31 GMT -5
funny you say that john,i've got osteophytes in my spine C3 to C6 vertibra,from which i suffer chronic back pain and muscle spasms and now live on a diet a gabapentin and co-codamol tablets. my knees give me a hard time also and I'd hazard a guess this is more down to carting rings 80 yards than it is from working in the lower seams. the older end used to say we'd know about it when we got older,they wernt wrong.
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merlin
Shotfirer.
prop and lid
Posts: 64
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Post by merlin on Apr 17, 2015 13:56:42 GMT -5
my father used to tell me when he worked pillar and stall the face was called the wicket north wales collieries
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Post by fritz on Dec 7, 2015 3:37:12 GMT -5
(a) board and pillar (b) pillar and stall (c) room and pillar (d) stoop and room. The name varied depending upon the part of the country the mining took place, however the method was basically the same. Anyone know of any other names. Hey miners, this ist Fritz from germany, pre retired from mining since 3 years from now. Germans know this item as 'room & pillar', in german called 'Pfeilerkammerbau'. As a coalminer in the meantime my business has been the road heading. And for this item I am searching for some help and knowledge about an equipment that spent a littler time in germany in the older days. It was named 'Trackheader', build by 'Perard Torque Tension Ltd.'. Does anyone have informations like pictures, blueprints, an adress to aks there? Sorry, when e met the wrong part of this forum and sorry also about my hard english. Hoping on answers, Glückauf Fritz
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