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Post by John on Oct 17, 2013 14:39:34 GMT -5
Just got me thinking with Jim's joking about monkeys climbing long props.
When I was transferred to Cotgrave in 1968, the main loco road was full 20ft circular rings... Back when that roads was driven, early 60's, it was done by drilling and firing on the solid and loading out with an MC3 loader...How on earth would they have set the crown???
Even the two side sections would have been a job and a half..
Would they have used chain blocks hanging off the "horse heads"??
Walking that road and seeing those fluorescent lights above me used to make me cringe, I'd have hated to be sent lamping up in that roadway, it would have needed a scaffold and an extra man.
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Post by tygwyn on Oct 18, 2013 15:20:57 GMT -5
When you say full 20ft circular rings,
Were these 4 section rings?
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Post by John on Oct 18, 2013 17:28:40 GMT -5
When you say full 20ft circular rings, Were these 4 section rings?
Now remember when they were driven, they dirlled and fired in the solid, loaded out with MC3 loaders, probably onto scraper chains to a temporary conveyor.
Later development was done with Dosco roadheaders. |
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Post by tygwyn on Oct 18, 2013 18:31:48 GMT -5
When they had trouble with squeeze in Abernant working the Peacock they tried these full circle rings,but to no avail,they got chewed up like everything else,the principal of them working made sense,but the pressure down there was to much.
I presume with 20ft circular rings,that these would be heavy section rings?
Would i be correct in thinking that the finished roadway was higher than the base of the ring,to give a walkway alongside,if so by how much?
Remember this Collier has only ever erected 6 8ft rings in his time underground,and that was starting a new drift from the surface,before going onto notched timber.
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Post by John on Oct 19, 2013 6:19:01 GMT -5
When they had trouble with squeeze in Abernant working the Peacock they tried these full circle rings,but to no avail,they got chewed up like everything else,the principal of them working made sense,but the pressure down there was to much. I presume with 20ft circular rings,that these would be heavy section rings? Would i be correct in thinking that the finished roadway was higher than the base of the ring,to give a walkway alongside,if so by how much? Remember this Collier has only ever erected 6 8ft rings in his time underground,and that was starting a new drift from the surface,before going onto notched timber.
The south side into the Deep Soft seam was very heavily weighted, my first couple of weeks was drawing off on the last district worked, some electrics from a conveyor drivehead. I was taken down the old conveyor road section, the bottom ring segments were "growing" out the floor and touching the top section in places.
Floor lift at that pit was incredible! That and roof conditions was the reason Deep Soft was abandoned after just five faces.
In Deep Hard, next seam down, being worked in the north, floor lift was also a problem, full time dinting crews kept main and tail gates open.
Ironic, when I was at Clifton Colliery working towards Cotgrave, conditions were about as good as you could get, the last Deep Hard face, 41's was out at the boundary of our workings and there was plans to drive the main gate out as an emergency escape road into Cotgrave Colliery. Both main and tail gates were in excellent condition, no floor lift and very little weighting. The gate roads were well over 1.5 miles long!! |
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Post by tygwyn on Oct 19, 2013 8:02:59 GMT -5
Your discription of the conditions regarding floor lift and weighting in Cotgrave being totally different to Clifton,are similar to Abernant and the other Collieries in the area that worked the Peacock seam,
Abernant was sunk between the Dyffryn and Gardners faults,some experts reckon the close proximity of these 2 faults led to the problems in the Peacock,yet they worked the Red Vein a higher seam with success.
Betws when they tried driving through the Gardners fault to reach the Peacock was another failure,the roadways closed behind them from the pressure,
Yet Collieries East and West of the Dyffryn fault worked the seam successfully.
Regarding these 20ft circular rings,i`m only surmising here as i`m out of my depth,if the base of these rings to be erected was lower than the finished roadway,possibly 3ft lower to allow for a level road due to the curve of the rings,if these rings were bolted together on the ground,with the butt of the ring lower than the road,could not a sheave be placed on the last erected ring,with a rope over the top attached to a pickrose or similar to lift the top of the ring in place?
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Post by John on Oct 19, 2013 10:51:16 GMT -5
I'm not aware of any large faults between what was Clifton's workings and Cotgrave's workings Jim, the only major fault I'm aware of is the large one that the River Trent sits in that veers off to the west of Clifton Colliery and almost follows the line of the River Leen.
Clifton had two drifts driven from just west of pit bottom down through those faults, and all the post WW2 workings were south of the fault heading towards Cotgrave village, cutting three seams over the years...None being prone to floor lift or heavy weightings.
Saying that, the inbye bunker, a Butterly Bunker, was sighted on a minor fault, as stupid as stupid can be..... Of course the rails for the bunker had to be re aligned every few months to prevent the bunker coming off the rails....
That was about half a mile outbye of the 41's main gate I mentioned in one of the above posts.
There were a number of minor faults that didn't cause us any problems in floor and roof conditions on the last run of faces heading south, 2's main road was driven in the Piper seam, which dipped at about 10-15 degrees west to east. 41's in Deep Hard was at about the same level as 43's in Piper, so obviously a minor fault between them.
We also hit a "white wall" in 51's (Tupton seam), so a troublesome fault there running at about 30 degrees across the tail gate...But again, there was little to no ground movement from that fault, the tail gate showed no bad signs of floor lift or roof crushing the road that I noticed.
The only heavy roof I noticed was in gate roads too close to older faces, like 12's had only a small barrier between it's tail gate and 10's main gate, just a couple of feet if that, and one old hand got double unit, 15's M/G was badly weighted.
I'm still intrigued at how they assembled those 20 foot full circulars though, I don't think they'd have used a Pickrose haulage though, I saw in developments at that pit, they were driven with Dosco road headers, and they lifter the crown with the boom....Even if they had Dosco's driving the loco road, which I know for certain they didn't, a Dosco couldn't drive 20 foot headings, let alone lift a crown that high.
That is the Dosco Mk1's they had back then.
I know from Mick Wolven (sp) that the loco road was driven with firing on the solid and loaded out with MC3's, not been able to find Mick since I saw a post of his many years back in another site, Mick worked at Cotgrave during the development stage...
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Post by tygwyn on Oct 19, 2013 15:28:37 GMT -5
The faults i was referring to effected Abernant in the Peacock seam.
Shame you dismiss the use of an haulage rope over a sheave,without an alternative method of lifting these 20ft circular rings,it kind`s of kill`s a good debate.
What width was the finished road?this would to a degree give the depth of backfill and finished height of road,before any squeeze of course.
What type of machine was the MC3 loader?
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Post by John on Oct 19, 2013 16:49:38 GMT -5
The faults i was referring to effected Abernant in the Peacock seam. Shame you dismiss the use of an haulage rope over a sheave,without an alternative method of lifting these 20ft circular rings,it kind`s of kill`s a good debate. What width was the finished road?this would to a degree give the depth of backfill and finished height of road,before any squeeze of course. What type of machine was the MC3 loader?
The loco road held up well from the south end to the north end, I didn't see any signs of weighting anywhere along it. I forget now the width of the road after infill.
The MC3 loaders were like duckbill loaders with caterpillar tracks, made by Mavor and Coulson, they were pretty popular in the 50's and 60's until roadheaders took the place of shotfiring in development headings. |
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Post by tygwyn on Oct 19, 2013 19:27:42 GMT -5
I understand what you mean,that you never saw any rope haulage`s at Cotgrove,but as you said,these roadway`s were erected before you started,
Are there no heading men on this site that would have an idea how these were lifted into place?
If there was no machinery to lift them,then it was down to a manual practical method,
Could not these MC3 machines not tow a rope over a sheave,if the ring was assembled on the round of muck fired down,that would reduce the angle of lift considerably,seems feasable to me ,until a better idea comes along,
I used to lift 7ft 6in pairs of timber myself,and being only 5ft 7in,i used the fired down tophole as my staging to wedge and lagg.
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Post by John on Oct 20, 2013 8:03:50 GMT -5
That's what I was hoping Jim, that we had an old development worker who had set 20ft full rings pre road header days.
Setting supports these days is easy with machines to lift them in position.
I suppose the loader could have been used as a winch, Inspector might have frowned upon the idea though, but how often did they catch anyone "bending the rules"....LOL
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Post by tygwyn on Oct 20, 2013 16:14:39 GMT -5
16ft arches,on 6ft extensions,crown lifted with block and tackle to max height,men on platform push forward Horseheads,then lift manually crown on to Horse head`s,this was at Coventry Colliery when they drove to join with Newdigate Colliery,with the intention of installing a 500ton bunker to accommodate Newdigate`s output,apparently Newdigate never used the bunker,it was closed.
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Post by John on Oct 20, 2013 16:46:18 GMT -5
One thing is certain, rippers and development workers earned their money!!
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Post by tygwyn on Oct 21, 2013 19:07:39 GMT -5
Just to add,this heading in Coventry Colliery after firing down was cleared out with a slusher,
When lifting the crown`s with the block and tackle,the block and tackle was often hung from the last ring,a quicker method but care had to be taken,
When anyone was around the official method was used,a hole was bored,and a pulley secured with plugs and feathers,and crown lifted with rope attached to the slusher.
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Post by John on Oct 22, 2013 9:23:10 GMT -5
Just to add,this heading in Coventry Colliery after firing down was cleared out with a slusher, When lifting the crown`s with the block and tackle,the block and tackle was often hung from the last ring,a quicker method but care had to be taken, When anyone was around the official method was used,a hole was bored,and a pulley secured with plugs and feathers,and crown lifted with rope attached to the slusher.
I doubt very much they would have "bent the rules" at Cotgrave, as the pit had to work by the rules... Yeah I know, but get caught breaking the rules and hefty fines were handed out, Deputy's and Overmen made the men work strictly to the book, they weren't willing to lose their tickets.
I didn't stay long after I'd completed my apprenticeship, the working atmosphere was unbelievable...Frustration was rife and labour turnover was extremely high, it was always short of skilled labour during it's early years..
One example, get caught riding a belt was a trip to the Managers Office, getting your rear end kicked and to add insult to injury a five quid fine and a warning, next time get your cards...
We did ride the belts though!! End of shift, blokes came off the face, got their gear together and stood around, I asked the elec I was working with what was going off, he explained they and we are waiting for the Overman, Deputy and shotfirer...Wh walked past us and jumped on the belt in that order followed by the face crew etc....... Moral of the story, the Officials couldn't book anyone riding the belts because they didn't see them, and hell!!! There were over 20 witnesses to say they were riding the belt...
Another example, I was in my last few months as an apprentice, so worked supervised on faces, we'd done our work and daily exams and the fitter was snowed under with work, so we gave him a hand...I forget how he found out, but our Elec Engineer wanted to see us when we got out the pit...Boy did he dress us down, as he said it's impossible not to find work, there's always something to do, a bolt loose, or clean the dust off GEB's or the transformers etc etc... Ever wonder why I threw the towel in after I'd completed my apprenticeship!! |
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Post by tygwyn on Oct 22, 2013 11:59:26 GMT -5
As you mentioned previously,MC3`s were used at Cotgrave,
So being the official method was to bore a hole and secure pulley with plug and feathers,would they not have used the MC3 with a rope?
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Post by John on Oct 22, 2013 12:30:26 GMT -5
As you mentioned previously,MC3`s were used at Cotgrave, So being the official method was to bore a hole and secure pulley with plug and feathers,would they not have used the MC3 with a rope? |
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Post by colly0410 on Oct 23, 2013 10:22:55 GMT -5
Moorgreens Piper upcast inset pit bottom was like a cathedral it was so high, I used to think "how did they get those girders & timbers up there?" Hucknalls downcast Main Bright inset & Deep Soft pit bottoms were tiny in comparison..
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Post by John on Oct 23, 2013 11:21:59 GMT -5
I wonder why they go so large?
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Post by tygwyn on Oct 23, 2013 13:25:47 GMT -5
Could it be because you English lad`s are so tall,lol.
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Post by John on Oct 23, 2013 14:12:14 GMT -5
That's it Jim, they'd been told the lads from the closing north east pits and Scottish pits were giants...So they drove the main road at 20 foot.
Pity the faces were bloody low though.. LOL
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Post by colly0410 on Oct 24, 2013 7:10:04 GMT -5
Could it be because you English lad`s are so tall,lol. Yeah, I'm big at 5 feet 2 inches, lol.. |
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Post by John on Oct 24, 2013 8:18:44 GMT -5
I'm only 5ft 6"..
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Post by Wheldale on Oct 24, 2013 13:57:03 GMT -5
Here's a picture of some rings put into the shaft at wheldale when the skips were installed. Attachments:
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Mick
Shotfirer.
Posts: 163
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Post by Mick on Oct 24, 2013 17:46:47 GMT -5
Yes and there was a bend in the shaft as well you could feel it when you went down the skip would rub on the rails in the shaft.
mick.
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Post by smshogun on Feb 11, 2014 14:12:47 GMT -5
John:
The full circle rings at Cotgrave were assembled easily, they drove the roadways as circular roads and put the crown and both legs on the floor and loose bolted them, they lifted up these three sections with the machine and onto the bull bars and let them hang, they put the ground section piece in and joggled it and packed it with dirt until it was set at the right height then lifted the sub assembly up with the machine, pushed the legs out until they met the bottom ring section and bolted the lot together to form one solid circular ring.
These were then filled with wire mesh and concreted with a fast setting concrete at floor level, this was built up around the rings by shuttering then and pouring more concrete in to give a fully circular concrete roadway. |
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Post by John on Feb 11, 2014 14:50:30 GMT -5
John:
The full circle rings at Cotgrave were assembled easily, they drove the roadways as circular roads and put the crown and both legs on the floor and loose bolted them, they lifted up these three sections with the machine and onto the bull bars and let them hang, they put the ground section piece in and joggled it and packed it with dirt until it was set at the right height then lifted the sub assembly up with the machine, pushed the legs out until they met the bottom ring section and bolted the lot together to form one solid circular ring.
These were then filled with wire mesh and concreted with a fast setting concrete at floor level, this was built up around the rings by shuttering then and pouring more concrete in to give a fully circular concrete roadway.
I'm surprised Budge didn't buy that pit, as there were so many seams that were workable and yet untapped. |
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Post by Wheldale on Feb 11, 2014 16:23:04 GMT -5
John:
The full circle rings at Cotgrave were assembled easily, they drove the roadways as circular roads and put the crown and both legs on the floor and loose bolted them, they lifted up these three sections with the machine and onto the bull bars and let them hang, they put the ground section piece in and joggled it and packed it with dirt until it was set at the right height then lifted the sub assembly up with the machine, pushed the legs out until they met the bottom ring section and bolted the lot together to form one solid circular ring.
These were then filled with wire mesh and concreted with a fast setting concrete at floor level, this was built up around the rings by shuttering then and pouring more concrete in to give a fully circular concrete roadway.
I'm surprised Budge didn't buy that pit, as there were so many seams that were workable and yet untapped.To be honest I don't think Budge was interested in the long term future of the mines, I think he was just in it to make a quick buck! |
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Post by smshogun on Feb 20, 2014 14:04:11 GMT -5
They only used them for main roads, particularly the loco roads as they were the only way to virtually guarantee they met the standards for the high speed rail they planned to introduce, they first tried the high speed underground rail at Blidworth Colliery and they had tremendous problems maintaining the track bed, hence the full round rings and concrete infill.
High speed rail could run at speeds of up to 20MPH underground and this was part of a long term plan they had for Cotgrave for other purposes. |
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Post by colly0410 on Feb 20, 2014 14:26:17 GMT -5
Smshogun
When I was at Moorgreen TC I can't remember seeing any loco's down there, was they ever used at that pit?....Also any other pits that didn't use loco's underground?
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