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Post by Wheldale on Sept 17, 2013 9:12:02 GMT -5
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Mick
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Posts: 163
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Post by Mick on Sept 17, 2013 10:08:38 GMT -5
I find it very interesting the idea seeing that the chief engineer is a TORY,now if i remember right i thought they shut all are pits.
A little bet here its not going to happen not if Crofton people have anything to do with it.
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Post by Wheldale on Sept 17, 2013 12:56:54 GMT -5
I don't know if he is a Tory or not. The fella, Bill Birch taught me at uni. He used to be a senior opencast engineer for the coal board. The area of coal they will work was a proposed opencast site for coal and fire clay. Don't know why it never worked as an opencast site? If you look on their website it lists there achievements so far and it seems they are quite far into the project.
I wonder if this is the future of UK coal mining? Small mines working small pockets of coal?
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Mick
Shotfirer.
Posts: 163
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Post by Mick on Sept 17, 2013 15:43:15 GMT -5
slob.pic.candidate Bill Birch (tory) (NS) bottom of the picture.
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Post by Wheldale on Sept 18, 2013 4:57:54 GMT -5
Yeah I saw that on the picture Mick, to be honest I didn't know if it was a mistake or not as the news story didn't mention tories.
Still, I hope the mine works out for the community, if its true there will be a load of money going to the local villages and afew jobs aswell.
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Post by tygwyn on Sept 18, 2013 6:09:34 GMT -5
Wheldale,
You mention the Sharlston seam outcrops in this area,
1.does it outcrop on the proposed site
2.the report mentions the proposed seam being the Sharlston Top seam,any idea what section the seam is in this area,and if previously worked,as Gadge mentioned working the Yard seam of this group,presumably deeper.
3.Thinking of the price the CCG pay at present for coal delivered to the power stations,and them going Bio-fuel orientated,do the figures they present really add up.
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Post by Wheldale on Sept 18, 2013 6:48:11 GMT -5
Tygwyn,
Ive copied their geology page from the website (www.newcroftoncoopcolliery.co.uk/?doing_wp_cron=1379427095.4400200843811035156250). There is quite a lot of information on their website. I know the seam outcrops nearby but from the sound of it not on their site. It was an old proposed opencast site. I don't know why it wasn't worked as an opencast site. My dad grew up in the next village and there were a few opencast sites around that area. Royston drift work the seams nearby. It was a drift that came to about in the plan for coal in the 70's. The two drifts were put down in four weeks and the mine from what I hear was very successful. Kinsley drift was planned in the same way and situated not far away from Royston and it was a complete failure! This new mine is to work by board and pillar and they say will cause no mining subsidence.
Geology
An extensive drilling programme carried out by the former British Coal Opencast Executive (BCOE) between 1975 and 1985 established that the geology is relatively simple.
The two coal seams to be worked by the mine are the Sharlston Top (1.16 metres thick) and the Sharlston Low (1.42 metres thick). There may also be extraction in the Sharlston Yard seam, although this is still to be decided.
Two areas of coal have been defined; the Northern area is a fully proven recoverable reserve consisting of Sharlston Top ( 351,800 tonnes) and Sharlston Low (411,300 tonnes).
It is separated from the Southern area by the North Anglers Fault. The Southern area is a resource that has been determined from boreholes and a detailed examination of colliery abandonment plans in the vicinity. It consists of Sharlston Top (896,100 tonnes) and Sharlston Low (1,074,900 tonnes). The depth to the basal seam (Sharlston Low) varies from 45 to 130 metres.
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Post by John on Sept 18, 2013 7:42:38 GMT -5
Is it financially worth sinking an underground mine for such small amounts of coal??? 351,000 and 411,000 tonnes is not really a lot of coal compared by the extraction rate of modern collieries....I know they won't be spending millions on a heavy duty face, but just thinking of viability, when modern mines turn those tonnages in just over a month nowadays.
Even thinking back to my youth when I was with the NCB, those figures represented less than a years output and were considered too low to keep a colliery open on economic grounds...And that was when costs were much lower by todays standards.
My first pit sold 15,000 tons a week which put that mine in the 750,000 a year and was closed because it wasn't viable economically, and that was 1968.
It also had proven reserves in the Ashgate and Blackshale seams to last the pit for another 50 years, 50 years was the NCB's figures, not mine, so lets say realistically 30 years. So with the surface to underground drift that was planned, new washery etc, the figures would be based on 1,000,000 plus tons a year output.
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Post by Wheldale on Sept 18, 2013 9:05:46 GMT -5
I reckon it will be like the mine that was featured on the tv programme "coal" in the USA. Coal seam starts at about 40m depth. Two short drifts, almost straight into the seam. Probably in-seam mining technigues so very little dirt comes out of the headings. Machinery? Maybe a couple of continuous miners and shuttle cars and a couple of roof bolting machines. I doubt there will be a lot of stuff on the pit top building and coal prep wise. They reckon 50 men will produce 6000 tonnes a week. I don't know if it can be done but they must have backing money wise for the project so someone believes their figures?
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Post by Wheldale on Sept 18, 2013 9:14:47 GMT -5
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Post by John on Sept 18, 2013 9:26:55 GMT -5
I figured it would be Bord and Pillar, probably continuous miner and shuttle cars, God forbid anything like that "Coal" series, that mine scared the crap out of me, thank God I was under the M&Q Act, then later the NSW CMA...I'd have got hung drawn and quartered by Management if I'd taped a 1000 volt miner trailing cable up!!
The roads still need to be high enough to get a miner and shuttle cars through. In fact I'm not sure a CM is made for seams of 3 feet thick, I know shuttle cars are made for seams of four feet, but lower than that, no...
A joy SC10 car is about 4ft 6" high, a Jefferies 120H CM is just over 5 feet high, then the canopy over the drivers station takes that to over 6 feet.
Lowest Joy CM I worked with was about 4 feet high and it was the most hated machine at the pit, was our spare machine, cost us bonus as it had no where near the cutting power of the 120H's. Scary bit about that was we were in pillar extraction, where we needed a good reliable fast cutting machine, the driver was totally nervous with the Joy CM.
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Mick
Shotfirer.
Posts: 163
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Post by Mick on Sept 18, 2013 11:47:45 GMT -5
They could always try a in seam miner,we had them at Wheldale in both the tail and loader gate stables,then all they would need was a wheel barrow to take the coal out  Mick. |
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Post by John on Sept 18, 2013 13:19:56 GMT -5
They could always try a in seam miner,we had them at Wheldale in both the tail and loader gate stables,then all they would need was a wheel barrow to take the coal out Mick.  |
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Post by tygwyn on Sept 18, 2013 14:53:45 GMT -5
www.metalinnovations.co.uk/This machine was designed for out of work electricians,to be trained as Miner`s,they are able to lie down whilst working,lol Not much cop with our hard quality coal in Wales,but should chew up and spit out that soft stuff you call coal up North,lol.
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Post by John on Sept 18, 2013 15:55:25 GMT -5
One of the first faces I worked on after face training Jim, had a shearer, AB16/125 with an AB15 pre cutter in front of it.. So much for soft when it needed precutting.
That was a face the Area engineers brought overseas mining engineers to see, it was classed as the best Dowty Roofmaster face in the area.. Hated it, chocks ran on hydraulic oil back then, any burst hose left one hell of a mess that seemed to follow the face for several shears..Always seemed to be covered in oil..
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Post by John on Sept 18, 2013 15:58:08 GMT -5
That miner looks like a fitters nightmare, two chain conveyors, first time I've seen a CM with two chain conveyors..
Just looking at the photos, that's a toy.....LOL, they wouldn't have lasted an hour in NCB pits .. 
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Post by tygwyn on Sept 18, 2013 16:46:52 GMT -5
That miner looks like a fitters nightmare, two chain conveyors, first time I've seen a CM with two chain conveyors..
Just looking at the photos, that's a toy.....LOL, they wouldn't have lasted an hour in NCB pits .. To be fair to the machine[1500],it was`nt designed for an NCB type operation,it can work thin seams,a lot less than this Crofton project,but its weight is`nt enough to cut hard coal apparently,it pushes itself back from the coal,was trialed in the 2 Smallmines owned by the designer,and out on contract in another. The 4500 was trialed in either Unity or Aberpergwm,but was`nt as strong as the Dosco`s etc,hard coal showed it up. There is one out in NZ somewhere,and there was one up in London with the Paddies on a sewer job. So what would you suggest to work this metre seam in Crofton? |
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Post by John on Sept 18, 2013 17:38:19 GMT -5
I've no idea Jim, been many years since I worked in thin seams, big problem these days would be locating thin seam equipment.
Just imagine all the low seam longwall equipment the NCB/BC left behind underground..Again, the problem now even if a load of Gullick five leg chocks could be found with an old AB16 shearer would be parts to keep them operational.
Last time I worked under the M&Q Act too, the height of roads was a minimum of 5ft 6" or the height of the seem whichever is the greatest.
I'm aware that was not very often adhered to in NCB mines, but that's what it stated, so roads would have to be kept reasonable or the Inspectorate would condemn them..
I suppose a modified shortwall could be set up with a low seam miner, AFC and props and bars?? I'd imagine Dowty still make the hydraulic props.
I was spoiled in thick seams, even if I was still young and fit enough to go back underground, I would never work in less than eight foot seams now..
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Mick
Shotfirer.
Posts: 163
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Post by Mick on Sept 19, 2013 8:51:56 GMT -5
What about a AB 10/12 and link bars that's if they could get hold of the stuff,its not like you can call at the corner shop or asda and pick some up  . Mick. |
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Post by John on Sept 19, 2013 8:56:11 GMT -5
What about a AB 10/12 and link bars that's if they could get hold of the stuff,its not like you can call at the corner shop or asda and pick some up . Mick.  I'd wager stablehole elimination stopped manufacture of those heavy beasts.. |
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Post by cortonwood on Sept 22, 2013 17:04:23 GMT -5
Entire mines can be worked at seam height with todays equipment.
I worked at hayroyds colliery a while back and David Flack told me about a mine he visited in the states which was a metre in section and the whole pit was extracted at that height.Continuous miners and shuttle cars were used,then belts to take the coal out of the mines.if I remember rightly it was all roof bolted.They had manriding shuttle cars to take care of the men and materials.
This new crofton development is a stones throw from me,if I hear anything i'll post it on here.
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Post by John on Sept 23, 2013 6:29:59 GMT -5
Entire mines can be worked at seam height with todays equipment. I worked at hayroyds colliery a while back and David Flack told me about a mine he visited in the states which was a metre in section and the whole pit was extracted at that height.Continuous miners and shuttle cars were used,then belts to take the coal out of the mines.if I remember rightly it was all roof bolted.They had manriding shuttle cars to take care of the men and materials. This new crofton development is a stones throw from me,if I hear anything i'll post it on here.
I'm reading that mines in West Virginia and Kentucky are laying off thousands or workers and closing, due to the economic climate and falling coal prices, not to mention "Obumma's" kill the coal industry plans.
A few years back the trend was change to longwall mining in deep mines, it's highly profitable even in times of low coal prices, there are a few plough faces operating over here, and with Cat and Joy's new computerized set ups, almost manless now.
I remember when I was working in Bord and Pillar, we were taking about 10 feet in a seam that was about 18 feet thick, top and bottom coal was dirty so was left.
I doubt we could have taken as much per shift as we were doing had we been in thin seam. We were using Joy SC10 shuttlecars with "hungry boards" fitted, 10 ton cars carrying about 12 tons or more. Been many years now, but I think we averaged 20 cars a shift, taking into account the face team was setting wood props and half round bars, plus bolting using W straps and steel "bars" to for support. |
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Post by gadge on Sept 23, 2013 8:22:46 GMT -5
What about a AB 10/12 and link bars that's if they could get hold of the stuff,its not like you can call at the corner shop or asda and pick some up . Mick. AB10/12 ,that brings back memories of newmillerdam pit |
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Post by John on Sept 23, 2013 10:56:38 GMT -5
I was just searching for low seam mining machinery, all I could find was the Cat CM210 miner that goes from 30 inches to thicker seams, it's accompanied by battery or diesel cars to transport the coal to the belt.
I couldn't find any Joy CM's that go down to thin seams.
But getting away from coal cutting machines, whats the lowest roadway allowed now under UK mining laws? Like I stated earlier, I remember the M&Q Act stipulated 5ft 6" or the seam height, whichever is the greater... Has this changed???
If not, some type of short or longwall face would be more appropriate. Probably the cheapest would be a plough face.
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Post by cortonwood on Sept 23, 2013 14:54:22 GMT -5
when I worked at hayroyds the machines that the company was considering were made by Fairchilds I think,which I was told could work in heights as low as about a yard,i'm quoting this from memory so I may be wrong,but i'm more or less sure this was the firm.
This new enterprise at crofton is looking at working the sharlston seam.I'm pretty sure its not very deep because it was open casted about half a mile away.
I've had a drive past today and all the area is rural.
You arnnt looking at tens of millions to get going here,i'll bet the surface drifts wont be more than a couple of hundred yards before they reach the seam and then they'll be earning.
I hope it isn't pie in the sky,i'd love to see a pit up and running again around here,but I must admit I've got to wonder where they'll get the manpower from,there arnt many ex miners of an age that would want to go back underground for a living I wouldn't have thought.Polish and other eastern Europeans will probably be the answer.
If I can find my m&q books out i'll have a look for the minimum road height,from memory I cant remember coming across one both throughout my schooling and my time as a deputy.I've worked on faces of thirty odd inch that had gate that had converged to less than twenty four inch,but I can remember where the law stood on such things. 'Receiving attention' on the m&q form was probably enough to keep the inspectorate happy.
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Post by John on Sept 23, 2013 15:37:34 GMT -5
I often wondered how they got away with all the "crawling" roads...LOL Receiving attention seems to fit that bill...LOL
Some of the M&Q Act is ingrained in the old memory banks, had to learn it parrot fashion, and when we asked WHY, the answer came back "So's you know when your breaking the law" Oh well....LOL
I often wondered why we had to learn shaft signals, rope haulage signals, shotfiring rules etc as apprentice electricians....
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Post by Wheldale on Sept 23, 2013 16:11:02 GMT -5
I've dug out two books about the area of the new mine, coals from sharlston and the history of over 850 years of mining at nostell. As the last book suggests their is a long history of mining in that small area, makes me wonder if they will encounter any old workings.
I've emailed the company proposing the mine with a few questions, I don't know if they will email me back but will post on here if they do.
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Post by John on Sept 23, 2013 16:21:11 GMT -5
I've dug out two books about the area of the new mine, coals from sharlston and the history of over 850 years of mining at nostell. As the last book suggests their is a long history of mining in that small area, makes me wonder if they will encounter any old workings. I've emailed the company proposing the mine with a few questions, I don't know if they will email me back but will post on here if they do.
I'd imagine the NCB did a lot of safety boreholes in the region because of mining going back so long..Might have a "butchers" at the coal authorities borehole page later and see whats been done around that area. |
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Post by John on Sept 24, 2013 7:46:51 GMT -5
There's a fair few boreholes around the area that I found, Sharlston Colliery, New Sharlston Colliery, Nostell Colliery, Walton Colliery, Park Hill Colliery, so a fair amount of old workings to negotiate around.
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Post by Wheldale on Sept 24, 2013 9:11:11 GMT -5
Been a few opencast sites too. It will be interesting as the proposed site is next to the Nostell colliery. The book I have says that the seams we worked. Maybe they worked the seams in the opposite direction. Will also be interesting to see if the opencast site that was opposite the old pit gates ever encountered old workings.
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I'd wager stablehole elimination stopped manufacture of those heavy beasts..