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Post by tygwyn on Sept 16, 2013 4:32:59 GMT -5
Time flies,its 2yrs since this disaster happened,the local council and organizers have placed a small memorial to these men near the entrance to the Tareni Colliery,which is below the Gleision.
The investigation into this accident is still on-going,like the ones with UK Coal,they took years to come to a conclusion,even though the facts are so plain what happened.
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Post by tygwyn on Mar 28, 2014 17:45:13 GMT -5
The court case started this week into this incident,
The Manager and Owners both pleading not guilt to the case`s of negligence and manslaughter.
Today it mentioned that the shot firing brought with it 650,000 gallons of water bursting into the 2ft 6in seam,on one of the radio news reports this afternoon,i caught mention that the manager did`nt believe there was much water there,maybe his defence will be he cannot read.
The trial is to go on for 4mths apparently,the inspector reports will be interesting to hear.
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Post by tygwyn on Apr 2, 2014 18:15:01 GMT -5
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Post by tygwyn on May 19, 2014 14:48:24 GMT -5
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Post by andyexplorer on May 20, 2014 5:37:08 GMT -5
If i remember right at the time , the water was said to have come from un charted abandoned workings ?
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Post by tygwyn on May 20, 2014 6:52:49 GMT -5
Andy,
There were no un-chartered workings,the face posts and pack that you can see through the hole the water burst through was from the late 70`s early 80`s workings,they were working down in that area when i was working there 81/82.
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Post by tygwyn on Jun 13, 2014 17:08:01 GMT -5
The last of the QC`s did their summing up today,the judge will be summing up next week i presume ,and the jury will be deliberating the case,so a verdict can be expected soon.
I won`t be surprised if the verdict goes the other way,as the defence QC has done a very good job,the prosection QC just was`nt clued up on Mining matter`s to portray a clear view of matter`s to the jury,so God know`s how they will make sense of it all.
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Post by dazbt on Jun 19, 2014 9:23:31 GMT -5
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Post by tygwyn on Jun 19, 2014 15:15:04 GMT -5
Much as i thought Daz,a total whitewash,a travesty of justice,
Nothing learned from the 1979 Lofthouse inquiry requiring a PAI before entering cautionary barriers.
I was led to believe this legislation was on the statute,
So how the hell was this ignored in this court case.
4 lives in exchange for another`s arrogance.
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Post by John on Jun 20, 2014 7:28:01 GMT -5
Should never have happened knowing full well that old workings were all around this small mine... Was the "Manager" a class one holder?? Or just a Class3 holder, as is common in small mines.
That would make a difference, as Deputy's just don't have the technical mining knowledge of Managers.
When I was a young apprentice at Clifton Colliery, we were working close to water bearing strata on the south west side of the pit, 12's M/G was just a few feet east of the boundary laid down as a safe zone... I can't recall how it happened now, but the gate was following the lines laid out by the survey team..Next thing we know, the face had to be turned east a few degrees as it was "out of line" Turned out our head Surveyor had screwed up and could have ended in disaster, major inrush from the Bunter aquifier.
The Surveyor was sacked on the spot and from what I was told his ticket was "pulled".
It used to look odd when the next shift was coming up the gate to the "bend" in the road....Oddly enough, the gate belt managed to negotiate the bend in the road too...
We did eventually lose the face to water and convergence, it was a very wet face towards the end with large drippers throughout the face..
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Post by tygwyn on Jun 20, 2014 11:36:33 GMT -5
Just a Deputy,but to be honest,even an electrician could drive through that barrier with a PAI in place,
Something stinks about this case,how a not guilty verdict was arrived at beat`s me,
He broke Mining law`s,ie.not applying for a PAI before entering a cautionary barrier,
He was warned of the water by the previous owner,
He was told by the surveyor,when he asked if he could work this coal in the barrier,that he could ,But would need a PAI before commencement,
He went ahead to drive through the barrier without a surveyors point,
He clearly did`nt check at the point of inrush,
Even when water was trickling out of the boreholes,the other side of the barrier was not checked again before firing,and the use of a long cable to be out of reach.
When water trickles out of boreholes,alarm bells should ring,re-bore the holes with a longer drill if available,get someone around the other side to sump the coal so the sound and vibration can be picked up and located,but as this was clearly not done as the clown was 50yds from the point of inrush so no measures could be confirmed,
Yet the CPS could not make a case of it,pathetic effort or a Whitewash,
Any person that can read Mine plan`s can clearly see where this water came from ,unlike the companies witness geologist who reckoned it rose from an old Colliery below,i ask you,800ft from the Red Vein to the Rhondda No.2,through 3 virgin seams in an area with no major faults,and it was swallowed.
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Post by John on Jun 20, 2014 12:56:09 GMT -5
I don't know all the facts regarding the case Jim, although I will say, it should never have happened.
As an electrician with years of experience under my belt in mining, been a chargehand unsupervised on nightshift, ( why I say unsupervised, on production shifts we had a shift engineer and a chargehand), and had to make decisions, been unsupervised as an electrician at other mines and made decisions, never had to call an engineer out during those times either...
BUT, on saying that, I don't have an engineers ticket, and I know I don't have the technical expertise to do an engineer in charge job on a daily basis. My point being, is a Deputy really qualified to carry out a Managers class 1 job on a daily basis??
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Post by John on Jun 20, 2014 13:19:47 GMT -5
There was one thing I really liked in NSW, Australia, I don't know if its still operating the same way, but court inquiries into mining accidents were presided over by a Judge who was familiar with mining law and how mines work etc.. They weren't just common criminal court Judges.
When evidence was given, the Judge understood it, he didn't need anyone to tell him what a gate road was or the difference between a main gate or tail gate, CM or shearer.
On saying that, Australian mining tribunals didn't like pointing the finger...Check out the Appin Colliery explosion in 1979 and subsequent recent investigation into it.
I'd have pointed the finger at two people for that "accident" The district electrician who was obviously breaking the law, I presume it was the electrician who was working on the aux fan with the FLP control chamber open and power on, and of course the Deputy who seemed to turn a blind eye to such practices in his district....Appin was a very gassy pit, they have methane drainage plants installed.
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Post by tygwyn on Jun 20, 2014 14:53:11 GMT -5
Why would you need a Class 1 manager to overlook 6 men underground?
It seems when the HSE with the HMI Mining rules get slimmed down from pressure with the Government,[apparently your Boulby is all for it]you won`t even need a Deputy to manage a Smallmine,just a person that can show experience in this form of Mining,
How that is going to work regarding explosives and dets i don`t know,but saying that,in the 15yrs i worked in Smallmines,only in one Colliery the Deputy loaded and fired the shotholes,in all the other`s it was the Collier`s.
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Post by John on Jun 20, 2014 15:24:18 GMT -5
Why would you need a Class 1 manager to overlook 6 men underground? It seems when the HSE with the HMI Mining rules get slimmed down from pressure with the Government,[apparently your Boulby is all for it]you won`t even need a Deputy to manage a Smallmine,just a person that can show experience in this form of Mining, How that is going to work regarding explosives and dets i don`t know,but saying that,in the 15yrs i worked in Smallmines,only in one Colliery the Deputy loaded and fired the shotholes,in all the other`s it was the Collier`s.
But, on saying that, when I started in 75, the Manager had a BSc in mining, and the company did require an elec and mech engineer with a BSc in their disciplines, but that was ICI's rules.
All the local born elecs and fitters just held trade certificates unlike the ex NCB fellers who held coal mining certificates.
All mining Shift Supervisers held Class2 tickets, again the Misc Mining Act didn't require them to.
When I was at Marblaegis Gypsum mine, the only certificated man was the Manager, as I say, I don't think they required it under the Misc Mining Act..Even the Surveyor didn't hold a mining Surveyor ticket.
Different rules and regs in Misc Mines Jim to coal mines. |
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Post by tygwyn on Jun 20, 2014 17:17:43 GMT -5
I don`t know what part of the HSE rules Boulby is all for slimming down,but i read it somewhere they are,
Anyway,a Smallmine under these cut`s to the Mining reg`s won`t need any official,just a competent man to run thing`s.
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Post by John on Jun 21, 2014 5:51:56 GMT -5
I don`t know what part of the HSE rules Boulby is all for slimming down,but i read it somewhere they are, Anyway,a Smallmine under these cut`s to the Mining reg`s won`t need any official,just a competent man to run thing`s. |
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Post by John on Jun 21, 2014 17:19:35 GMT -5
I might also add, when I worked for CPL, there were owned by ICI and Anglo, ICI was the major shareholder and I have nothing but praise for their attitude towards safety...Sure we had accidents, we were working in an "unknown environment, the first company to work deep potash seams in the UK. We were obliged under Henry Stucke, the Mine Manager/CEO to attend monthly meetings on both production schedules and safety.
I think every one of us held Henry Stucke in high esteem, he was a gentleman and knew his job.
There were a few instances that fell on deaf ears, but not many, happens in all large companies.
BUT, after the first major gas blow out that killed a CM driver, all production stopped and a strict system of boring headings so many yards was implemented by the company without the Inspectorate forcing them.
After a side wall collapse, that killed a fellow electrician and good friend of mine and a miner, all production stopped and ALL sidewalls and pillars were bolted, meshed and steel ropes as an extra were installed and tensioned. The Management said in both instances that these accidents will never be repeated...As far as I'm aware, they still look like they carry out those procedures..
As for how they operate today, I have no idea and they are owned by an Israeli potash company now.
As an electrician there in the mid to late 70's, I found Management backed me up in all decisions I made in my day to day work..I cannot recall ever being "on the carpet" once, in fact Peter Allen, Elec Superintendent, thanked me personally many times. As did David Horner the Elec Engineer.
And just to add, I was pretty "Bolshy" back then, I was known for being "bloody awkward" at times.....But only in regard to safety..
As John Neilson, Shift Mining Supervisor, once screamed at me because I wouldn't break the rules..."You're a bloody awkward bastard, but you're a bloody good electrician." I think that summed me up, and I bet if Kerry Morris, my Elec Engineer at Angus Place ever drops by here, he'll say the same thing, and I was one of his leading hand electricians..
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Post by tygwyn on Jun 22, 2014 6:07:12 GMT -5
Why not transfer these posts to the Boulby thread,
As they have nothing to do with 4 Collier`s killed unnecessary in the Gleision Smallmine.
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Post by John on Jun 22, 2014 8:47:17 GMT -5
Why not transfer these posts to the Boulby thread, As they have nothing to do with 4 Collier`s killed unnecessary in the Gleision Smallmine. |
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Post by tygwyn on Jun 27, 2014 9:07:47 GMT -5
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Post by John on Jun 27, 2014 13:29:19 GMT -5
How come you weren't in suit and tie Jim..... 
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Post by tygwyn on Jul 4, 2014 5:29:14 GMT -5
Sometimes its better not to comment if one cannot add anything better than ones attire,
I foolishly thought this case might have been of interest ,as 4 Collier`s were killed through bad practice un-necessary,but i was wrong,
But if this had happened in the Nottingham coalfield,Boulby or Angus Place there would have been 20,000 pages by now.
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Post by John on Jul 4, 2014 9:15:14 GMT -5
Sometimes its better not to comment if one cannot add anything better than ones attire, I foolishly thought this case might have been of interest ,as 4 Collier`s were killed through bad practice un-necessary,but i was wrong, But if this had happened in the Nottingham coalfield,Boulby or Angus Place there would have been 20,000 pages by now.
So have no small mine experience and I know even less about Gleison... My guess is your the only one, apart from Clive on this site that knows and has worked in small coal mines. |
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Post by John on Jul 5, 2014 16:22:51 GMT -5
Sometimes its better not to comment if one cannot add anything better than ones attire, I foolishly thought this case might have been of interest ,as 4 Collier`s were killed through bad practice un-necessary,but i was wrong, But if this had happened in the Nottingham coalfield,Boulby or Angus Place there would have been 20,000 pages by now. |
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